Bleachgate

Hello everyone. This is a text adaptation of my video which you can find here: http://twitvid.com/Z7TOH

Today, I am going to write about Crohn’s Forum.com and what went down on Monday and Tuesday of this week.

I’ll start by giving a brief background to Crohn’s Forum. It’s a support forum for those who suffer from Crohn’s disease. It’s a very active forum with lots of members.

I signed up a few months ago, just after I was diagnosed with Crohn’s. I was looking for a support forum, a community of people with same illness as me and some, on the same meds as me.

I was warmly welcomed by the people on the forum. People sent their apologies and condolences for my diagnosis. etc.

I was never an overtly active member. I popped back every now and then to see what was going on, or if I had a problem/question, I’d post it. e.g. insomnia, dealing with other prednisolone side effects/other Crohn’s symptoms. Another thing I’d do is read someone’s stem cell treatment blog, which I found very interesting.

All the while, I noticed there was a lot of alternative medicine pushers/believers on the forum. One thing I noticed was Miracle Mineral Solution. I joined this forum before I became active skeptic. I was skeptical of this product, but at the time didn’t do anything about it.

Yesterday, however, I started thinking about Crohn’s Forum and the alternative nonsense going on. I remembered this Miracle Mineral Solution and so decided to Google it. What I found was shocking to me.

First off, I found an FDA safety bulletin posted on 30th July 2010. From the FDA page which can be found here, I learned that MMS was an industrial bleach, when made up as according to the instructions. It produces chlorine dioxide, which is used for stripping textiles and industrial water treatment. I’ll come back to the FDA warning in a minute. After learning what it actually is, I went to the official MMS website. It is utterly disgusting. It claims that MMS is a cure for AIDS, cancers, hepatitis A, B and C, malaria, herpes and tuberculosis. This started my alarm bells ringing. The website screams DANGEROUS WOO to me.

So, the website also tells people how to take it. Basically, after making it up, you take a few drops of it. You judge if you’re getting better by how nauseous you feel after taking it. Seriously.

I’m not going to go into the pseudoscientific nonsense behind it, because frankly, it’s a waste of time. I will however summarize it. The website claims MMS helps the body to identify toxins and that it helps remove said toxins. Removal of these toxins causes nausea. So, how might one explain that it also causes nausea in well people? Of course, it’s cleaning up past infections or other illnesses being “mopped up”. Yeah… Right…

So, back to the FDA warning. It’s fairly straightforward. It states the problem with MMS, that it’s an industrial bleach. Drinking bleach is very obviously dangerous and has effects such as nausea, vomiting, diarrhoea and symptoms of severe dehydration. It then goes on to mention how MMS makes unfounded claims of efficacy with regard to its long list of alleged cures. The FDA also notes how people might self treat and refuse conventional medicine and how this is dangerous. Finally, it recommends people stop using it and throw it out.

Seeing this, knowing that people on Crohn’s Forum use it, I thought “Damn, this is bad. I should warn them”. After checking to see if anyone had mentioned it before, I started a thread on Crohn’s Forum saying very simply, “Warning: Miracle Mineral Solution is dangerous.” I Implored people using it to stop and posted link to FDA warning. The first reply? “Wowza”. I thought, “Phew, thank goodness. If anything, that’s one person informed.” However, the thread quickly took a very different route. The second reply? “Oh but you neglect to warn about Remicade’s side effects!” They then gave a long list of Remicade’s side effects, both common and rare, which, yes, include reactivation of TB and various lymphomas (rare side effects, for anyone interested) However, in my initial post, I made no mention of conventional medicine. Their posting was completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. An ad hominem attack on conventional medicine, if I ever saw one.

Next up, a user named D Bergy, starts ranting about how chlorine is used in various pharmaceuticals and industrial water treatment. Again, completely irrelevant to the fact that drinking pure industrial bleach is dangerous. He then goes on to say about how big pharma won’t sponsor studies into things like chlorine dioxide and Low Dose Naltrexone (another forte of D Bergy) because the cost of a medical trial would offset any profit from a generic drug, because it can’t be patented. OK, fair point. Still, it doesn’t mean they should be blindly accepted and used without assessing safety. He also starts trying to counter a point I made in an earlier post that anecdotes aren’t evidence when it comes to medicine. He used a metaphor, saying “I wouldn’t look for double blinded trials when looking for a car, I’d ask my friends for advice.” I rubbished this, saying it’s hardly the same as a using a medical treatment which could easily kill or damage you.

I then called him out on a post where I’d seen him giving out dangerous, unqualified medical advice to someone wanting to start to take Miracle Mineral Solution. This person, before starting taking MMS, had a bad throat. It was about to get much, much worse.

D Bergy posted in the person’s thread, and I’m paraphrasing here, “Oh, don’t worry, that’s fine. You can still take MMS” Hmm… Doesn’t sound like a good idea to me. So, the person starts taking MMS and unsurprisingly, their throat gets worse. They post, getting concerned. D Bergy tells them it’s all normal and to keep taking the MMS. This person, stupidly, carries on. The next post I see from them says “I can hardly swallow my own spit”. D Bergy, yet again, tells them it’s normal and to carry on. This kind of unqualified medical advice is clearly dangerous. The person was probably suffering oesophageal burning due to drinking and gargling bleach, and was at risk of oesophageal collapse.

Back in my warning thread, D Bergy told me that I had falsified this claim, that he was handing out dangerous, unqualified medical advice. In response, I posted a number of quotes from the thread backing up my claim. He replies saying “You’ve taken that out of context!” I tell him I haven’t and he shuffles off. How I could’ve taken the quotes out of context is beyond me. I, correctly, claimed he was giving out dangerous, unqualified medical advice. I posted quotes with him giving out dangerous, unqualified medical advice. Nothing taken out of context. This calling out of a prominent member got a number of people angry and riled. I was also told by various users “Oh, well people have differing opinions on things. Judging peoples’ choice of treatment is wrong. No one in the thread was wrong. This is a support forum.” I was also told to stop slandering people. Something I had not once done in the thread. Another user then posted in the thread saying “I don’t mind this thread, so long as it’s respectful discussion going on.” I thought this might be a turning point in the thread, and we might actually get down to discussing Miracle Mineral Solution. Oh, how wrong I was. Instead, when I said I agreed with the respectful discussion, I was told it was told to “drop it” as it was neither the time nor the place to be discussing a) Whether D Bergy was a danger and b) Whether MMS was a danger. I made a posting saying I disagreed. It’s a treatment forum, therefore it’s the perfect place to discuss what some think is a treatment, and it’s 10 days after the FDA announcement, therefore it’s also the perfect time to discuss it, especially considering not everyone had heard the news before.

It was at this point that I started receiving abusive personal messages. A user known as Cackman888 sent me lots of PM’s calling me all sorts of nasty names. He also posted some of them in the thread. Back in the thread, I called for the name calling to stop and to start some rational discussion. These calls were both ignored. Instead, the name calling continued both in PM’s and the thread, with Cackman888 calling for me to be banned. He claimed I made out I knew everything about Crohn’s, something I never have and never would do. I do not and will not ever know everything about Crohn’s. Other people then started posting their negative conventional medicine anecdotes in the thread. It was quickly collapsing around me. I was also told that D Bergy had given great advice in the past and he’d been a member for years, and as such, it was wrong of me to criticise him. I was criticised for taking the scientific viewpoint. I decided “Right, that’s it. time to abandon ship.”

I started another thread entitled Anti-Skepticism. I’ve lost the exact wording of it, since the thread was deleted, so I’ll rely on memory. Basically, I started off saying how disgusted I was at the response to the warning thread. I told them that if anything, they should be more skeptical of potential treatments, given that they’re at a higher risk for snake oil peddlers to peddle them something. I once again questioned that it was not the time nor place to discuss MMS. I then called for negative alternative medicine anecdotes, something you never hear unless asked for. Sadly, this thread didn’t turn out the way I intended. Instead of actually sparking discussion, I was told that I’d interpreted the “neither the time nor place” thing wrong. Someone also posted telling me they trusted people on forums more than scientific evidence as “science has been proven wrong before”. The only logical post in the thread was from intermanaut summarising why people turn to alternative medicine. After all that, some more posts had been made in Miracle Mineral Solution thread. The discussion had sadly; well sort of sadly, turned to homeopathy. I flexed my knuckles and got down to answering the post. They told me they’d used homeopathy on their horse and that horses couldn’t possible have the placebo effect. I sent them a link to Science Based Medicine.org’s take on the matter and pointed out that animals can exhibit the placebo. They also said about how they hoped they could use alternative medicine to treat their son’s Crohn’s forever and that I’d be open minded to try it. I replied “Thanks, but no thanks. I rely on science based medicine”

Finally though, a senior member took notice of this thread and, to summarize, he told people to calm down. He said to them not to take the thread as a personal attack and that my opinions also shouldn’t be mocked – a very good point. Here, he was pointing out the irony of the alties criticising my opinion of alternative medicine and then saying “Don’t criticise our opinions”. He summed up my post excellently and then said “He was offering this alternative viewpoint on your alternative viewpoint.” He also said how he was appalled that there were calls to ban me, simply because I was looking out for people’s wellfare by posting this news about MMS. Huzzah! Someone with a bit of sense. This didn’t, however, stop the mods deleting both my threads.

I received a stern telling off by PM from a mod, saying I’d have a two week ban if I posted any more posts which upset people. I replied to this PM saying “If people get upset hearing that their favourite quackery has been banned by the FDA for being a danger, you should be contacting them telling them to grow up.” A number of different members started going round my previous posts where I’d criticised alternative medicine. Again, the replies were all “This is a support forum. How dare you ask for scientific proof to back up peoples claims! That’s antagonistic behaviour! Don’t criticise or question people’s choice of medication. How would you like it if people criticised your choice?” to which I responded “I wouldn’t care. I’m not married to azathioprine or prednisolone AND I have scientific proof backing up my choice. What do these people have? Nothing. And yet they get upset when I repost anything critical of their choice, even if it wasn’t me who posted it originally!”

At this point, I left it, as I was sick of arguing with people who clearly were not listening to anything I had to say, and were going through previous posts of mine looking to antagonise me.

So, this morning, I receive a PM quoting where I’d said “I upset people by pointing out they’re using fraudulent, even dangerous so called medicine? It’s them you should be writing to not me.” and a response to this quote, telling me it was my attitude which is upsetting and would not be tolerated. I was, at this point, banned for 10 days.

Make of it what you will. To me, it suggests that they want to silence debate. It appears a great number of the people who make up Crohn’s forum are in love with so called alternative medicines. What I don’t get, is how Cackman888 wasn’t banned. I was not being inflammatory at all with any of my posts, even when calling out D Bergy. He simply screamed at me to get off the forum and called me a number of derogatory words. I thought the people posting in the threads asked for respectful discussion. Why were they not telling Cackman888 to calm down and stop being offensive? Also, where is the ban, or at least warning, for D Bergy? He was clearly giving out dangerous, unqualified medical advice that someone was taking as if he was a medical professional. Clearly, it’s one rule for them and one rule for everyone else.

I was ostracised from the community, merely for asking for proof of a potential treatment and posting the dangers of another. It’s ridiculous. They’re willingly keeping themselves and, more dangerously, others ignorant, by deleting posts like mine.

So, what can we do to tackle the kind of problems demonstrated on Crohn’s forum?

Well, I don’t know. Some people have suggested that you sign up and start a guerrilla campaign from the inside. I can’t personally help with this at the moment, as I was not just userbanned, but IP banned from the forum. I’m sure that by building the number of skeptics active on Crohn’s forum will help in future discussions, however. The snake oil users already have numbers, which is why they can so quickly take over and take down any threads which go against their illogical, antiscientific beliefs. I think that one major problem is that a number of the mods of Crohn’s forum are also of the delusion that debate about these products is bad.

However, even though it appears all bad, at least the people who read the thread are now more informed. At least those who took the time to make note of the thread can make a more informed decision about their health and use of products. If they choose to ignore this advice, on their own head be it.

I suppose one more good thing that can come of all this, however, is knowing that the FDA are going to start prosecuting those who sell or advertise Miracle Mineral Solution. In the statement made to the press on their website they say “The FDA continues to investigate and may pursue civil or criminal enforcement actions as appropriate to protect the public from this potentially dangerous product.”

What would also be good, in my eyes at least, is if it were possible to prosecute those selling and advertising MMS under UK law, as the Cancer Act of 1939 states that no-one may claim to have cured cancer, which websites relating to Miracle Mineral Solution have done so.

So, that just about wraps up my first real blog post.

Any response to it, whether it be on twitter (@rhysmorgan) or in the comments, would be much appreciated. If you want to email me, don’t hesitate to ask me for my email address too!

Also, noticed any mistakes? Please let me know! Thanks.

– Rhys

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522 Responses to “Bleachgate”

  1. Paul Provenza July 27, 2012 at 4:00 pm #

    Rhys – Thanks for your bravery, tenacity, curiosity and compassion. You, my young friend, are an inspiration. Thank you for daring to be who you are. I eagerly await who you are destined to become.

    Provenza

  2. Evilcyber August 16, 2011 at 4:10 pm #

    Rhys, when a young man like you can see and talk this much sense, there is still hope for this world.

  3. MNOne June 5, 2011 at 12:40 am #

    Judge Judy – Yes, many people can die on prescription meds. But that figure is all prescription meds, which cannot be adequately compared to one treatment, and amongst those drugs are ones prescribed to patients who know that the treatment may kill them, but know that the disease definately will, and sooner, if they don’t have it.
    Let’s also consider that by switching to MMS, or some other alternative treatment, someone may go off their legitimate medication. Is MMS then, or at least the people pushing for it, responsible for the subsequent deterioration of their health, even their deaths? This applies to all those patients who turn to “alternative” medicine and abandon their carefully created routines designed to prolong their lives.
    And yes, some conventional medicines have side effects and risks attached. So, incidently, does industrial bleach. But medical proffessionals attempt to manage those risks. They try to understand and balance the effects of the chemical and bio-chemical adjustments they make. This isn’t always easy and it sometimes doesn’t quite balance correctly. But then living systems are quite delicate, and incredibly complex. If Waterwise actually knew anything about living systems I’m sure (s)he would tell you that.

    Waterwise – This is not, technically, directly related to MMS and this deplorable scam (which it is) but I would find it immensely interesting to deconstruct some of this ‘Waterwise’s’ arguments.

    Firstly, you talk about the freedom of people to choose. Interestingly, you don’t think that evidence should be used to weight that choice. To choose without context, to have EVERY possibility open to you, actually diminishes the freedom of the choice. Now that sounds weird but hang on (i.e. don’t start composing your reply now based on the idea that I’m trying to portray slavery as freedom)… To have every possiblity open makes any choice essentially arbitrary, since nothing weights each potential decision. So what Rhys is doing here is in fact GIVING people freedom because he is giving them information on wich to freely make a choice. To know something is to be able to make informed deccisions. To know that a specific ‘treatment’ is in fact bleach actially aids in a decision. To say that that fact is outwieghed by anecdotal evidence is at best silly and foolhardy, and worst grossly irresponsible and and kind of manslaughter.

    Anecdotal evidence, on the other hand, does not (or should I rather say should not) actually weight any decision particuarly heavily. In fact, what gives weight to anecdotal evidence is itself rather arbitrary – how much you trust a person, how close they are personally. It in fact puts another person in immense control of the decisions you make. Science, on the other hand, is a heterogenous project, composed of many voices aiming ostensibly to discover the impartial and opinion-neutral processes underlying the universe. It’s not always airtight, but it’s better than just guessing.
    See also the work of David Hume: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hume#Problem_of_miracles

    Lastly, I would like to address something that is clear in your comments regarding your motivations. You dismiss the negative connotations of the label ‘conspiracy theorist’ (in an earlier post) and talk of the leaving of the fiddly details to ‘theorists’ (abdicating your own responsibilty to think and choose for yourself, ironically). You clearly distrust big systems. The “medical establishment” and those nasty pharmaceutical companies (who do indeed need to be brought to account, incidently) and so on.
    I can tell you, speaking as someone who considers themself an anarchist and thus is set against the unaccountable and malign hierarchies of this world, that you are talking utter and complete nonsense. We turn to scientists because we respect the amount of work they’ve done, but we don’t (and shouldn’t) give them power or significance outside of their appropriate sphere. We turn to doctors because they actually KNOW a thing or two about the living systems of the body. And these groups form professional bodies to share ideas and information, to facilitate the continual improvement of their work.
    To quote an anarchist: ‘Does it follow that I reject all authority? Perish the thought. In the matter of boots, I defer to the authority of the boot-maker.’

  4. Dalisair June 4, 2011 at 9:11 pm #

    Kudos to you for exposing a snake oil peddler. Now if only everyone did things like this.

    • Neil Hoskins June 6, 2011 at 4:55 pm #

      Seconded. Rhys, I hope you’re planning a career in either science or politics… or maybe both.

  5. Emma Robinson June 1, 2011 at 1:02 am #

    THANK YOU!
    I’ve had crohns disease since i was 9 and when i was younger tried my alternative remedys. None helped, and I ended up in hospital horribly ill as a result.
    At I got older and more interested in science I realized what a ridiculous waste of time it had been to try them and how they were based on ridiculous notions.
    I’m now doing a bachelor of Science and MSS was mentioned in one of my cellular biology classes. The lecturer works in cancer research and has a PhD and said how awful it was.
    Your blog post is awesome, and so are you, Its brilliant that you’re trying to educate people about pseudo science 😀

  6. Paul Morgan December 9, 2010 at 7:48 pm #

    Ania,
    You clearly are missing the point here. You make claims about MMS and your “positive experience” with it, something which – given the well-described chemistry and toxicology of sodium chlorite and chlorine dioxide – is pretty much impossible to give any credulity to. Your story is nothing more than that – an unverifiable anecdote that proves absolutely nothing. In terms of evidence-based medicine, it’s worthless. See
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence-based_medicine
    http://www.cebm.net/
    http://www.ahrq.gov/clinic/epc/mcmacepc.htm

    Given the total lack of evidence and the well-documented chemistry and toxicology of sodium chlorite and chlorine dioxide, I find it difficult to understand how any rational person could continue to make the ridiculous claims that they do for its alleged benefits. It has also been reported by many people as causing them harm and I have no doubt that many more harmed by it have not reported it because they feel stupid about being scammed. There is the report of it being directly associated with a death in Vanuatu. We will never know how many people are harmed indirectly by stopping taking their medication when taking MMS.

  7. mms is a scam December 9, 2010 at 6:28 pm #

    Excellent response Paul Morgan — bang on in so many ways.

    One of the problems here is that some people are thinking in black and white — all things medical are useless and evil. But wouldn’t people agree that there is a place for nutritional treatments and a place for medical treatments depending on the circumstances or better yet combining the two together. However, there are some diseases that can’t be treated with alternative therapy, they require medical treatment and during the treatment adjunctive alternative therapy can be added if a person so desires.

    As far as MMS goes, it isn’t even an accepted “alternative treatment”, it is a dangerous scam driven by the internet — without the internet, Jumbo mumbo Humble probably would not have gotten anywhere. Jim Humble will not accept any emails that have anything in the title other than you support MMS — don’t expect to see anything negative about MMS on any websites related to Jim Humble, he won’t allow it. This is where people like Rhys and others come in, getting the truth out there.

    Keep up the good work Rhys.

  8. Paul Morgan December 9, 2010 at 6:01 pm #

    Waterwise – so you devised a water system for a small holiday village in Cornwall – big deal! How does that qualify you to talk about healthcare, medicine, anatomy, physiology, microbiology, pathology, vaccination? Is/was “Aqueous Designs” the name of the company that you worked for when you did this? What is/was the nature of their business and how does this relate to healthcare?
    As for developing “alternative”, “complementary” or indeed any “conventional” medicine, the processes needed to be gone through are exactly the same and the scientific standard of evidence is exactly the same. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_trial
    for information.
    Also see
    http://www.senseaboutscience.org.uk/
    The key issue is that it is the developer of any proposed new therapy who is responsible for conducting those trials. Typically, the “alt med” crowd seem to think to think they can market any old rubbish with no evidence. When questioned about the lack of trials, they respond – exactly as you do – by saying “it’s safe, you have no evidence, why don’t you do some trials to prove it’s no good”. So, on that basis, I could start selling petrol in 100ml bottles at, say, £20 a bottle, making all sorts of patently ludicrous claims of health benefits and wonderful tales of all the diseases it can cure. In order to hide its real nature I would give a name such as “Mineral Hydrocarbon Solution” or “MHS” for short. I have no doubt that I would succeed in luring people who are weak, vulnerable, desperate and gullible into buying the product. More scarily, I have no doubt that it would soon attract “alt med” types who would start extolling its virtues and others who would happily cash in on the scam, through a pyramid selling scheme. I would, of course, not conduct any trials as this would be “inconvenient” at best. In the meantime, as people come to harm, eventually others would expose the scam. I (and, no doubt, members of the “alt med” crowd) would respond with typical comments such as “it’s never harmed anyone”, “you’ve got no proof” and “if you think it’s so bad, why don’t you do some trials”. Eventually, the various regulatory would catch up with me, unless I flee the country – the Dominican Republic sounds nice.
    This is the fundamental problem with MMS. There have been no properly conducted trials of it to show it to be either safe or effective as a therapeutic agent for anything. On the other hand, the chemistry and toxicology of sodium chlorite and chlorine dioxide are well-known. See
    http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/ToxProfiles/tp160-c1.pdf
    I have asked many times on various discussion groups for anyone to provide any real, credible, verifiable, scientific evidence to show MMS to be a safe and effective therapeutic agent. If such evidence is produced and it fulfils the scientific standards, then MMS would be well on its way to being accepted. However, unsurprisingly, none has been produced in the over two months that I have joined my son in his campaign.
    MMS is sodium chlorite (a very toxic compound) mixed with citric acid, producing chlorine dioxide (a very toxic gas used as an industrial bleach). While chlorine dioxide may be great bug-killer in vitro, this is completely different to it being safe or effective in vivo as it will damage healthy human cells.

  9. mms is a scam December 9, 2010 at 2:37 am #

    Justin Satov said “I know this won’t stop anyone from arguing, but I’d just like to put it out there that if you ACTUALLY want to get something done, you have to go beyond arguing on the internet about it, despite how hard it is not to defend yourself.

    Thus I submit my retirement from this blog, as I find it difficult to maintain my sanity amongst some of the people here.”

    Rhys has actually taken this issue off the internet and has had some good results. There is a difference between a belief and scientific fact. It is not just a belief that antibiotics kill bacteria, it is a replicated proven fact. Unfortunately, there are many people arguing about beliefs — people are asking for some scientific proof to show that these beliefs are backed up by some scientific proof. People can believe whatever they want — but in terms of what this blog is all about — their is no credible scientific proof that demonstrates that MMS does anything. It is also true that when you ask for proof, if people don’t have any proof, they resort to personal unfounded insults. Does this sound familiar — Person A: MMS has no effect Person B: yes it does, it has cured 75000 people of malaria. Person A: Please provide some scientific proof regarding this claim, not anecdotal statements. Person B: It’s an FDA conspiracy, they hide the truth. Person A: That’s not proof, can you point me to any studies. Person B: fuck off you idiot, you are a moron etc, etc. How many times has this happened on this blog. It’s too bad these trolls who must be getting clinically obese from all the food they are getting here are driving people away. Well the bottom line is, they can’t provide the proof and they come across as sounding quite demented.

    It’s quite a common occurrence to find people spouting all sorts of conspiracy theory crap on blogs like this, it’s just best to ignore them and then they will move on to somebody elses blog.

    • Waterwise December 9, 2010 at 2:47 am #

      The reliance upon “approved publications” is not science. Any more than reading newspapers, or watching the version of news from mainstream media outlets.

      What is known by those of us that as skeptics of the given wisdoms from the likes of the Royal College of Surgeons, is that they advocate poisoning people.

      Funny how this simple fact is persistently ignored.

      As for conspiracy theories, well I will them to those that theorise. I prefer to deal in facts and observe the actions rather than the words of entities, agents and politicians.

      As for truth, as I have stated, people should be free to choose and none should enable such a disgusting regime of control over peoples lives to remain unchallenged.

      • mms is a scam December 9, 2010 at 3:38 am #

        Waterwise — go to the top of the page and read the topic of this blog — it’s about MMS.

        The “disgusting regime” of which you speak has saved my mother from death, my niece from a life of cretism (can nutrition replace a non-existing thyroid gland), my grandfather from cancer … . Your hatred of anything medical comes from personal experience but why are you tainting a blog about MMS, insulting a teenage for stating the obvious and having the guts to say so. The truth may not be the truth as you have stated it. Anything you have to say has become a parody of trollish behaviour. You honestly can’t believe people are going to take you seriously. You are using this blog as a soapbox to promote your own beliefs, yet you can’t provide anything but personal anecdotes. Unfortunately, you can’t see the miracles of medicine — diseases have been wiped off the face of this planet, people have been saved. You might want to look at the number of lives saved. There are two sides to every issue but your cognitive bias is so great, you can’t even see the other side of the issue. Why don’t you go join a forum, rather than a blog, where people believe in your views. The more you argue, the more insane you sound, the more you protest, the more people will not read your posts.

        This is a blog about MMS. IF you want a blog about what you believe in, start your own.

        In other words, PISS OFF.

        Rhys — why don’t you do us all a favour and ban this person, they add nothing to your blog, unless they care to contribute some scientific data and actually address MMS.

        Waterwise — by the way, MMS is more poisonous than most medications on the market. And it is not the whole medical establishments fault about some of the negative outcomes in your family, it’s sad what happened but you are making faulty assumptions about what happened.

        I’m done, I really shouldn’t feed the troll. I will stop now.

        • Judge Judy December 9, 2010 at 7:44 am #

          As mentioned, I am open to the idea that MMS is toxic. Yet when I read that approved medications kill 200,000 every year in the USA and someone here mentioned a single death attributed to MMS, I feel somewhat underwhelmed.

      • Rhys Morgan December 9, 2010 at 8:06 am #

        All in good time, my good friend, mms is a scam.
        First, however, I wish to ask Waterwise about his claimed job – 30 years of working with living systems.
        a) Which living systems?
        b) Were you working independently or as part of a company?
        c) How does working for a bathroom company involve working with living systems, unless by that you meant working with people?

      • Waterwise December 9, 2010 at 8:56 am #

        Firstly and foremost. I came here to defend the rights of people to choose how they look after themselves and expose the simple facts that your so called conventional medicines are causing more harm (some of which is now well evidenced to be quite deliberate).

        As for MMS, I regard anecdotal evidence with far more respect than you do. Why, because the most powerful recommendations I have ever found, are those handed to me by family, friends and acquaintances. Furthermore having used it and other substances to heal and free myself from dependency on prescribed drugs, I will happily vouch for its safety when used in the correct concentration and measure.

        You have still failed to answer the points raised in relation to the RCS advocation of fluoride! I wonder why.

        I do not hate anyone, but I see the necessity for speaking out against the corporate entities descended from the likes of I.G.Auschwitz (Farben) aka Baxters International, and this especially when I know that population reduction has been both written about and put into action. Go look at the UN population control publications or listen to Gates and the rest of the motley Optimum Population Trust.

        The claim that MMS is harmful and should be banned, in my view emanates from the very same stable of thought that has attacked other substances that have NOT CAUSED HARM, but do not fit into the profiteering from sickness enterprises that destroy so many peoples lives.

        What dis-eases have been wiped off the face of the planet by modern medicine? And more importantly why do western nations like the UK & USA invest so much of our money on biological weapons?! Who is the enemy?

        I am not saying that the entire medical profession are bad or evil, but it is undeniable that they have been misled as to what is of merit and what will harm. More seriously though, some of them have become so heavily brainwashed as to actually administer poisonous substances and tell us that they are good for us. (e.g. Fluoride, ethyl mercury et., etc)

        There are two sides to any debate, but somewhere a singular truth will be found. Those that are trained (brainwashed) into the allopathic reductionist perspective will invariably fail to acknowledge that the origins of medicines come from ancient plant lore handed down for tens of thousands of years that are corrupted by the notion that a single chemical rather than the entire spectrum of phyto chemicals used fresh and alive are far safer and more potent.

        I have insulted no one, but I do challenge the thinking of many and especially a father that has allowed his own son to be medicated with what are obviously harmful sunstances. I wonder, do you know the ingredients and nature of materials used in the vaccines given to infants? They can quite easily cause Crohn’s disease you know. Do you want evidence?

        Next you hurl abusive insult and suggest that I should be banned!

        Perhaps your own emotions are getting the better of you and some one should warn you for tardiness and discourteous rhetoric.

        It is sad about my own family, but even sadder that you do not seem capable of recognising the threats we all face from the multiple insults being inflicted through food, medicine and environmental pollution.

        Rhys (Paul)
        I will quite happily show you some of my work. For example, here is a wetland system I designed about 16years ago. It treats the wastewater from a holiday village with a population equivalent of I think 120. Has only a small recirculating pump in it, no other machinery and has received no maintenance whatsoever and achieved both a >98% treatment compliance and developed into a valued wildlife habitat complete with rare birds. Google Earth Duloe Manor.

        I designed it and assisted in its construction. There are many more of these and the operate from the principle that when we work with nature, rather than against it (probiotic rather than anti) we achieve far higher levels of quality and diversity.

        And Paul, there are more than one Aqueous Designs. I work with water, the elixir of life. Now I must be off to do some work now. Please thin a little about what I have stated. I mean you no harm and have written here with sincerity and truth. I will close by saying that those of you within the medical profession, should actually encourage the development of alternative medicines, study them, try them yourself, you will learn that the vast majority are based upon truly ancient insights. By such means it is my earnest hope, that the schisms between us can be reduced.

        • Singe June 8, 2011 at 1:47 pm #

          All forms of “alternative medicine” have either not been proven to work or have been proven not to work.

          Do you know what they call alternative medicine that’s been proven to work?

          Medicine.

        • Tharrick June 10, 2011 at 7:22 am #

          ‘What dis-eases have been wiped off the face of the planet by modern medicine?’

          *cough*Smallpox*cough*

      • Waterwise December 9, 2010 at 8:59 am #

        Oh and don’t forget to post your comments relating to the toxic substances listed above. These things really are a danger and should be stopped before attempting to ban MMS. In other words those that live in glass houses, are best advised not to throw stones.

        • beedogs June 5, 2011 at 9:12 am #

          Have fun drinking bleach, Waterwise. If I didn’t know any better, I’d say you had some financial stake in all of this.

      • Rhys Morgan December 9, 2010 at 11:18 am #

        “RAHRAHRAH BAN WHAT I SAY SHOULD BE BANNED EVEN THOUGH THERE’S NO REAL SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE FOR MY CLAIMS, BEFORE TRYING TO BAN SOMETHING THAT REAL SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE SAYS IS DANGEROUS”
        Also, you work with water – big difference from working with “living systems”, eh?
        Also, this may be hard for your little conspiracy theory filled mind, but I am not my father.
        Finally, may I ask what kind of skeptic you are?

  10. Judge Judy December 9, 2010 at 2:20 am #

    Many of you have kindly submitted links so I thought I’d post one of my own. This one is a bit different however, from the website of one of the most well-written, popular and influential magazines in the English-speaking world. This magazine also has its reputation and billions of dollars of advertising on the line so you can imagine that each fact is checked and checked again. The January 2011 issue:

    http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2011/01/deadly-medicine-201101

    A quick look for the lazy among us:

    “Prescription drugs kill some 200,000 Americans every year. Will that number go up, now that most clinical trials are conducted overseas—on sick Russians, homeless Poles, and slum-dwelling Chinese—in places where regulation is virtually nonexistent, the F.D.A. doesn’t reach, and “mistakes” can end up in pauper’s graves? The authors investigate the globalization of the pharmaceutical industry, and the U.S. Government’s failure to rein in a lethal profit machine.”

    • Waterwise December 9, 2010 at 2:27 am #

      Whilst I accept your chastisement for what you regard as crossing the line, you should know that I have lost three of my extended family over the past twelve months, that one of my nieces has just been diagnosed with poly-cistic ovaries after taking Cervarix and a birth control implant, that one of my daughters was forced to take an unnecessary infusion of anti-biotics during labour which caused her newborn to suffer a sever lung infection during her first few days of life and that the paediatrician responsible openly stated that if she had refused to take the infusion during labour, they would have removed her infant. That my mother contracted cancer after taking the seasonal flu vaccine.

      So for me, the lines were crossed long ago and I will do all I can to defend and share what I know to be good for me.

    • mms is a scam December 9, 2010 at 2:44 am #

      Judge Judy — yes, Vanity Fair is one of the best known scientific journals around. WTF. Ho hum.

      • Judge Judy December 9, 2010 at 7:40 am #

        LOL
        You are truly a foolish person.

  11. Justin Satov December 9, 2010 at 1:53 am #

    Honestly, all of this debate between both sides is completely and utterly pointless. And it can even be proven sociologically (that is, as far as you’re willing to trust social science).

    As social creatures we tend to collect into groups; it’s a natural drive that directs far more of our actions than many of us are comfortable with, which is why things like peer pressure are so effective. Anyways, when you attack someone else’s point of view, whether diplomatically or aggressively, all it serves to do is strengthen their own beliefs.

    Take national pride for example. Most people (a figure I can’t back up, admittedly) don’t often think too much about how much they love their country. Sometimes they even complain about how it “isn’t what it used to be” or what have you. If someone from another country insults your country, however, suddenly you need to defend it like it’s the only thing you have left to defend.

    So the conspiracy theorists (or “truth seekers” if you would prefer) and MMS-users have their beliefs, and us non-conspiracy theorists have ours. One is HIGHLY unlikely to affect the other. I know this won’t stop anyone from arguing, but I’d just like to put it out there that if you ACTUALLY want to get something done, you have to go beyond arguing on the internet about it, despite how hard it is not to defend yourself.

    Thus I submit my retirement from this blog, as I find it difficult to maintain my sanity amongst some of the people here. Enjoy yourselves and play nice, and always remember this politically incorrect adage: “Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics; even if you win, you’re still retarded”.

  12. Paul Morgan December 8, 2010 at 11:42 pm #

    Waterwise,
    Instead of continuing to post your nonsense conspiracy theories, how about providing us with real, credible evidence to support what you speak of. Also, how about telling us about your “30 years of experience with living systems” and what that actually means.
    Without providing such evidence, I think all your posts show you to be is another example of the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

    • Waterwise December 9, 2010 at 2:18 am #

      And I will close by quoting from Hippocrates

      “Let food be your medicine and medicine be your food”
      This simple statement has served humanity well for tens of thousands of years, if not longer and along with working with the laws of attraction (symbiosis) things can improve.

      Those of you still wilfully blind to the virtues of natural uncorrupted food and the need to avoid allowing your body to be injected with poisons will see over time whhy such a thing has arisen.

      Those of you wanting to assess just a snippet of what little I have achieved in my short season can go on to youtube and type pondman1 into the search bar.

      I have other things to attend to, other matters which for too many of our people present an equal if not greater threat to the vast majority of us.

      I make mention as to potential causality in relation to Paul and Rhys. Sometimes the truth is a painful thing, but to not speak the truth is far worse than to allow such a malicious attack upon people who look after themselves by methods not approved by centralised dogmas is I believe more important now than ever before.

      Few people can deny the epidemics of gastro-intestinal disorders, allergies, diabetes, cancer, etc., etc. The cures in my and many others view are there but sadly ignored by the system and now it seems actually under attack. But this attack is through the use of paper and statistics. Like Einstein, I regard them as worse than lies.

      • Singe June 8, 2011 at 1:51 pm #

        We had polio for tens of thousands of years and I wouldn’t argue this case to be a positive endorsement of polio for the human species.

        Same for slavery, war, and the subjugation of women.

        I could go on..

  13. mms is a scam December 8, 2010 at 11:28 pm #

    Maybe it’s time to turn this conversation around and provide some examples of how alternative therapies and practitioners of alternative therapy have harmed or killed people because they convinced their clients that medical treatment was not necessary even though they had no qualifications to make such determinations. I could give thousands of examples — see — whatstheharm.net

    • Waterwise December 9, 2010 at 2:17 am #

      Now that as a suggestion I think should be included, and obviously aongside it we should compare the fatalities and poisonings from so called conventional medical procedures and drugs.

      I think Justin has rounded this thread off nicely, there are obviously a good deal of individuals that will remain glued to the dominant agenda that I see medicating people to death. Given that my own insights have improved my own health and that my family are well and thriving, I know which way I will walk.

      This thread was initiated against the capacity of freedom to choice and is set in a time when certain medical professionals are calling for mandatory vaccines and others that literally bribe young people to get them to take the impositions.

      I also note that none have answered the question relating to the use of known toxins, a silence which in itself speaks volumes.

      ANd I will close by quoting from Hippocrates

      “Let food be your medicine and medicine be your food”
      This simple statement has served humanity well for tens of thousands of years, if not longer and along with working with the laws of attraction (symbiosis) things can improve.

      Those of you still wilfully blind to the virtues of natural uncorrupted food and the need to avoid allowing your body to be injected with poisons will see over time whhy such a thing has arisen.

      Those of you wanting to assess just a snippet of what little I have achieved in my short season can go on to youtube and type pondman1 into the search bar.

      I have other things to attend to, other matters which for too many of our people present an equal if not greater threat to the vast majority of us.

      I make mention as to potential causality in relation to Paul and Rhys. Sometimes the truth is a painful thing, but to not speak the truth is far worse than to allow such a malicious attack upon people who look after themselves by methods not approved by centralised dogmas is I believe more important now than ever before.

      Few people can deny the epidemics of gastro-intestinal disorders, allergies, diabetes, cancer, etc., etc. The cures in my and many others view are there but sadly ignored by the system and now it seems actually under attack. But this attack is through the use of paper and statistics. Like Einstein, I regard them as worse than lies.

    • Waterwise December 9, 2010 at 2:18 am #

      Now that as a suggestion I think should be included, and obviously aongside it we should compare the fatalities and poisonings from so called conventional medical procedures and drugs.

      I think Justin has rounded this thread off nicely, there are obviously a good deal of individuals that will remain glued to the dominant agenda that I see medicating people to death. Given that my own insights have improved my own health and that my family are well and thriving, I know which way I will walk.

      This thread was initiated against the capacity of freedom to choice and is set in a time when certain medical professionals are calling for mandatory vaccines and others that literally bribe young people to get them to take the impositions.

      I also note that none have answered the question relating to the use of known toxins, a silence which in itself speaks volumes.

  14. Paul Morgan December 8, 2010 at 10:25 pm #

    Judge Judy
    The question “Magnets – how do they work?” is a reference to the song (and associated video) “Miracles” by the Insane Clown Posse. Mostly known for their extreme use of foul language and violent terminology, it transpired relatively recently that they are evangelical Christians. The contradictions this throws up are staggering. Even the “Miracles” song is peppered with obscenities. What else it is peppered with is nonsense.

    • Judge Judy December 9, 2010 at 12:35 am #

      I have no idea what you are talking about Paul: magnets, evangelical Christians and “nonsense.”

      What is starting to make sense is that I was wrong about this blog: I first thought it was about a boy who was fighting a fight he thought just. Now I see it is about a domineering father and the son who wants to please him.

      • Amber K December 9, 2010 at 1:40 am #

        Both you and Waterwise have crossed the line there Judge Judy. Insults tend to fly in discussions like these, whether or not that is appropriate is a matter of debate. Most of us who in engage in them get pretty thick skins after a while. However, having the audacity to express an opinion on Dr. Morgan’s motivations or his relationship with his son is simply not acceptable.

        This is an remarkable boy with great courage and you have no idea what you are talking about. The fact that you think you do after reading a few blog posts speaks to your lack of judgment.

      • Judge Judy December 9, 2010 at 2:34 am #

        Amber, if you have any insight other than what is written here on this blog please share it with us for the rest of us only have these posts.

      • Amber K December 9, 2010 at 6:29 am #

        If you’d “do the research” Judge Judy you’d know that Rhys has been awarded with the Grassroots Skepticism award at TAM London this year. Not normal for a teenager. He’s been rather a celebrity in skeptical circles, because it’s unusual for someone so young to have the critical thinking skills necessary to understand when someone is trying to sell them a bill of goods. It’s certainly not taught in school.

        I can only surmise that it is his parent’s guidance that has taught Rhys to be a careful critical thinker. This is not a matter of a son trying to please his “domineering father” it’s a matter of a kid that’s been taught how to use his brain knowing bullshit when he sees it. This is a useful skill, not indoctrination as Waterwise hopes that we’ll believe.

        The point of skepticism and critical thinking is to require evidence for your beliefs and to be able to evaluate evidence. I surmise that you are naturally skeptical, but haven’t learned how to evaluate evidence. Rather than believing in a blanket fashion that the “conventional wisdom” must be wrong, perhaps instead focus on learning to evaluate the veracity of evidence. I think you might change your mind about a lot of things. There must be a threshold of evidence for belief, otherwise it’s just religion. Personal anecdotes do not meet that threshold, for reasons that you would understand if you looked into it. I hope you do.

  15. Paul Morgan December 8, 2010 at 10:16 pm #

    Ania,
    Instead of talking nonsense, how about providing real, credible, verifiable evidence to substantiate your claims. “Complimentary” and “alternative” medicines remain so because there is no evidence to support them as being effective. What they are effective at is disconnecting the gullible and vulnerable from their money. Homeopathy – see
    http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(05)67177-2/abstract
    and
    http://www.1023.org

    If you can find any real scientific evidence for the efficacy of your “complimentary” therapies, please provide it.

    • Ania December 8, 2010 at 11:42 pm #

      Paul, I find it quite sad that you feel you can personally mock, berate and insult someone like me who has never personally insulted you in these posts – just because they have a different viewpoint to yours.

      I know who I am, what I’m about and don’t feel threatened by those who have different opinions and experiences from mine; I just don’t agree with what is peddled by the pharmicidal killers – and I don’t have to insult people to make my point heard.

      The attitudes I have found here confirm who is closed minded and bigoted in their beliefs, and that there is no respect given nor any understanding (note I don’t say agreement) of those who have a different opinion. Is that really how to treat other people?

      It’s quite shameful to see the lack of respect for those who have a different opinion as have been voiced here – all because we don’t “agree with” the only acceptable option which is to ingest poison and toxins as that will make us well! We will continue to make sure that those around us who need to know, will know that there are and always have been (for thousands of years) other modalities of treatment which support healing and health.

      All I came on this blog to say was that I didn’t agree with the sentiments being expressed here about MMS as they were not based on what I considered to be proper information but rather disinformation, and my own positive use of the product – which you and others on here have found incredibly difficult to accept.

      Lastly, I note that many times you do not answer the questions put to you, which in itself speaks volumes.

    • Waterwise December 9, 2010 at 1:57 am #

      The evidence for the efficacy if many alternative therapies does not need establishing for those that have and do use it. If they bare witness to the results and as I have stated, the system of scientific publications is managed primarily by the political and vested interests, then by adhering to them, it is unlikely that you will encounter evidence.

      Is it because for you, the only truth that you will accept has to come from these austere bodies?

      If so, then perhaps you would like to explain to me, why these bodies continue to promulgate the notion that hydro-silicifluoric acid (fluoride), a known environmental toxin should be dosed at optimum levels into our youngsters.

      Such things reveal the real intent of the established powers.

  16. Paul Morgan December 8, 2010 at 9:57 pm #

    Judge Judy,
    This is where you fail to understand the issues. There are many diseases for which doctors are not needed, e.g. common colds. Other diseases, illnesses and injuries do need medical attention, e.g. broken bones, infections. Sometimes surgery is needed. The job of doctors, nurses and other health professionals is to provide the means by which healing can occur. In the 19th century, a compound fracture often meant amputation, severe disability and death. With modern medicine, in all its disciplines, this is not the case these days, with the vast majority of such injuries not only survivable but with full recovery. This is just one tiny example.

    • Waterwise December 8, 2010 at 11:32 pm #

      Perhaps you should have researched at more depth into the ways that healers of our ancient path carried with them a great deal more than we have been led to believe. IN may respects we have been for the past two millennia at least, been going through something of a dark age.

      A time when this so called civilli has reigned and decimated those that were here before. They called those ancient tribes savages, yet they and their descendants today, retain the means to heal to a far greater capacity than the western academic indoctrinations has revealed.

      The great inquisition was in many respects an attempt at the removal of indigenous gnosis and within that the plant lore was held by our womenfolk and it was they that were the primary healers and carers.

      I will not deny that we need people who know the intricacies of our physiology, but today, so much of the teachings and practices are led by the philosophies of business and the economics of extinction.

      When we follow the roots of this, we find that certain very powerful influences that co-ordinate the flows of money and resource, we find that doctors and dentists are selected based upon psychometry, more specifically those characteristics that generate similar facets that are deployed in officer positions in warfare. And now this even extends to the inclusion of Malthusian concepts, whereby those diagnosed with Alzheimer’s (a condition inflicted through substances proliferated within food and medicine) are encouraged to end their lives to reduce costs.

      Whilst a bone will mend, many of the medicines do leave a legacy and the entire concept that all medicines will have undesirable effects is in itself an extremely dubious facet that enables so much of the insult to the living being.

    • Judge Judy December 9, 2010 at 12:30 am #

      As mentioned, I am grateful for advances in surgery in our age. That isn’t the issue here.

  17. Waterwise December 8, 2010 at 5:31 pm #

    Juston Satov

    “While I do agree that GM foods are unfortunate, I also recognize that it would be IMPOSSIBLE to survive off of naturally grown things. Agriculture is not natural, but we need it to feed communities. GM foods are not natural, but it allows us to produce in vastly greater quantities.” This information was given to you by the very same system that has generated such a schism between the living world and that of reductionist science.

    GM foods are a weapon designed to slowly poison the recipients. It has absolutely nothing to do with ensuring food security. As for it being impossible to survive without modern agriculture, it not only is, but it is proven that modern agricultural processes both pollute the land and destroy diversity. Of the discipline I work with, one is Permaculture, a design philosophy that to begin with, does not seek one yield for a given area. When compared to conventional agriculture it produces in the region of four times as much food per unit area and this without any chemical input.

    Go and watch “Bullshit” by Vandana Shiva and discover what this particular corruption has and is doing. It should not be forgotten that Monsanto cut its teeth as a corporation by bringing Agent Orange along with a host of other pernicious and recalcitrant biocides into the world.

    As for whether this is a global conspiracy, well perhaps you should discover the delights of the WTO’s Codex Alimentarius and its present day attempts to destroy natural foods. We have recently seen as the people of Korea held vigil for more than five days and nights, to prevent the entry of Bovine Growth Hormone reared beef into their markets.

    Next I suggest you go and listen to the TED talks given this year by Bill Gates where he openly declares that they might achieve a 15% population reduction by vaccines alone. This is not idle chatter, it is a very real agenda with yet more evidence coming from the Optimum Population Trust.

    The reason for bringing GM foods into the discussion is to illustrate that the FDA is not a trustworthy entity. It is riddled with door swapping individuals from both big pharma and biotech. How else would such an appalling state of affairs exist.

    You are quite right, money is indeed used to corrupt the system, but once this is acknowledged, what has to be identified is exactly who are the paymasters.

    If I along with others are correct about the underlying agenda, and the amount of evidence supporting the same is increasing with each passing day. This thread began with an attack on people using MMS, how odd it is that when the tables are turned, so much name calling ensues. Such matters are not asinine, they call to the root of the problems being faced by literally billions of people. If you are perturbed by the traffic entering your inbox, then may I respectfully suggest you alter its settings.

    Finally, it is true human conflict is to be found throughout history, but interestingly, the conflicts from both recent history and perhaps the passed four hundred years all have a very disturbing theme that runs through them. It is this particular ideology that has become much more exposed thanks to the hard work of many brave researchers and writers, too many of which have been silenced.

  18. Amber K December 8, 2010 at 4:29 pm #

    I love how some people think because they don’t understand something that it can’t be understood. Magnets – how do they work?

    • Judge Judy December 8, 2010 at 4:42 pm #

      What are you referring to Amber K?

      • Amber K December 8, 2010 at 4:45 pm #

        The body isn’t magic, Judge Judy. We don’t have all the answers yet but we’re working on it. Just because you’re not doing the work doesn’t mean it isn’t being done.

      • Judge Judy December 8, 2010 at 4:48 pm #

        Didn’t say that healing couldn’t be understood but that it isn’t currently understood. When something is understood then one gets consistent results.

      • Amber K December 8, 2010 at 7:04 pm #

        Yeah, like vaccinations preventing diseases. Consistently. Results.

      • Judge Judy December 9, 2010 at 2:30 am #

        Amber, stick to the subject dear: we are speaking of the healing of the body, not vaccinations.

  19. noodlemaz December 8, 2010 at 11:27 am #

    You Wakefield-apologists might want to check out the fact that he was PAID by a law firm to go out and discredit MMR, so that single vaccines could be rolled out.
    Wakefield was never a health activist; he performed invasive, traumatising procedures on kids for no reason other than the large amounts of money going into his bank account.

    http://noodlemaz.wordpress.com/2010/05/11/research-fraud-for-dummies/

    He is worse than all the people on this blog YOU criticise for being in the pockets of Big Pharma or whatever; he really was. He was struck off for good reason, not because ‘the establishment’ thought he was too brilliant to leave loose.

    Please read all of that and don’t cherry-pick it; there are anecdotes available from the parents of the kids in his ‘trials’, who deny a lot of what he said outright, and the manipulation of his data is profound.

    There’s a reason all the other authors pulled their names from his study; that barely ever happens and when it does, it’s for good reason.

    • Waterwise December 8, 2010 at 5:42 pm #

      This accusation I have heard before, it is the all too typical smearing applied to any that denounce these impositions. Your next comment is utterly laughable since you seek to attribute his activities to the grabbing of money. I wonder whether you know how much money has been handed over to the pharmaceutical corporations! Or how much is handed back by them in the form of special trips to seminars in far off places that too many medical professionals have attended.

      Dr Wakefield’s response which is available to anyone wanting to find out more as to this particular situation or the research not only done by him, but since verified by others.

      And those parents, well, shall we say that whenever we see peple change their stories in such a dramatic manner, it should give us cause to question what influences might have been applied. The exact same scenario is repeated time and time again especially over the issue of vaccines.

      The reasons for the overwhelming absence of so many medical practitioners standing up against these poisonous impositions is very clear to any researcher and applies to many areas of science.

      The establishment entities today exist outside of the possibilities for most people to hold to account for their insane proclamations, to whit, please confirm whether you believe the following to be substances that you would readily inject into your own body:

      Ethyl mercury
      Aluminium hydroxide
      Formaldehyde
      Squalene oils
      Polysorbate 80

      These are a miutia of the corrupt substances employed, but I would be interested to hear your attempts at justification.

  20. Paul Morgan December 8, 2010 at 8:06 am #

    Judge Judy
    Doctors, nurses and other health professionals heal people all the time – that’s what we do for a living! Your comment is meaningless and pointless.

    • Judge Judy December 8, 2010 at 4:25 pm #

      No, it is the body that heals and to think you understand those processes makes you as delusion as those you accuse of delusion.

      • Ania December 8, 2010 at 8:57 pm #

        Exactly! Glad to see that someone on here understands this, apart from Waterwise. It is the “alternative” or “complementary” therapies that specifically promote and support the body to heal through the use of non-toxic remedies (be it herbs or otherwise) that helps to facilitate this, NOT the medical profession peddling toxic pharmacides! Toxins of the sort prescribed by the millions daily, pollute not just the ailing patients with poison, but also the planet. There is enough “scientific evidence” available showing what is happening to e.g. the water supply and the levels of chemicals and toxins being found therein as a direct result of people ingesting ever increasing pharmacides.

    • Waterwise December 8, 2010 at 5:50 pm #

      “Doctors, nurses and other health professionals heal people all the time”

      I wish that were true, I truly do. But another case recently was brought to my attention that underlines the peddling of toxic substances. A young man who had not been obtaining an adequate diet, became infected with a throat absess, a quinzey I believe is the term. He went to his doctor who prescribed an anti-biotic. But not only did the anti-biotic (anti life) not work, but he suffered an allergic reaction to it. His condition deteriorated and he was admitted to hospital where he was advised that the first anti-biotic was the wrong one and was given another (that rather oddly turned out to be the exact same drug). But thanks to loving friends, he was removed from hospital and treated with alternative therapy where upon within 24 hours he was healed. It should also be noted that when he was collected from said hospital he was carrying perhaps a hundred pounds worth of other pharmaceutical substances, some of which were for entirely different ailments.

      Now which points exactly that I have raised are meaningless and pointless?

  21. mms is a scam December 8, 2010 at 12:40 am #

    My palm is getting sore from my face repeatedly dropping into it.

    I guess all these posts really demonstrate why Jim Humble has so many followers because people seem to believe in all sorts of voodoo and pseudoscience. Coincidence doesn’t mean causation.

    Keep up the good work Rhys and Paul.

    To a few others, you are supposed to wear your socks on your feet not your hands.

    • Waterwise December 8, 2010 at 5:54 pm #

      Consider this, I am not a follower of any one. But I like others will question the so called wisdoms of an establishment that is doing such a disgusting job of looking after our people and will stand in the fullest defiance of any attempts to remove the freedoms of people to look after themselves.

      The swine flu vaccine was a scam, now exposed and before anyone should be given such disgusting things, it should by rights be on the basis that those administering them should sign an acceptance of liability under Tort.

  22. Paul Morgan December 7, 2010 at 9:00 pm #

    bacillus thunbergerinsii?
    What sort of tosh is this? There are NO references on PubMed that refer to this.
    Even worse is that aren’t even any references to it on a Google search:-
    http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=bacillus+thunbergerinsii
    Can we stick to real facts and science rather than spouting bollocks?

    • Waterwise December 8, 2010 at 10:57 am #

      Apologies, working entirely from memory sometimes leads to the odd typo. The correct term relates to the insecticide derived from soil born insect pathogen Bacillus thuringiensis. A substance originally isolated and used even for organic crops but later banned due to hypersensitivity issues but now included at far greater concentrations within the BT GM crops.

      It was claimed originally that BT was not endotoxic to mamals and humans, but this later proved to another false claim just like the idea that Roundup degrades in the soil.

      This is your science based agenda. A system where known poisons are inserted into all by distorting the truth.

      Now let us boil this down to basics. Do you deny that depopulation or population control is a real phenomena? Or are you going to attempt to cast off such a well evidenced aspect of this.

      It can also be stated, that we have all been subjected to social engineering and so the next question has to be (although it might be some what disturbing for those indoctrinated into certain professional practices), who and how many have been brainwashed into thinking that up is down. More simply put, is mercury a poison?

      People are not following any single individual in this, they will, when presented with conflicting versions of reality, search out for those things that make sense and fit the events unfolding.

      It cannot be denied that our world is going through tremendous changes and many people are suffering, not just in these islands, but across the entire globe. This on its own indicates that there is indeed a global agenda and the numbers of people suffering underlines that the intentions of those attempting to controlling all aspects of our society do not mean well.

      For a young boy to even be diagnosed with Crohn’s disease is significant in itself, such a thing should not afflict the young. Therefore it must be concluded that something has happened to him, something that has disrupted his physiology in such a way as to leave him dependent on medication.

      Who gains from this?

      • Justin Satov December 8, 2010 at 4:07 pm #

        @Waterwise
        While I do agree that GM foods are unfortunate, I also recognize that it would be IMPOSSIBLE to survive off of naturally grown things. Agriculture is not natural, but we need it to feed communities. GM foods are not natural, but it allows us to produce in vastly greater quantities.
        Sure, it’s less nutritious and not quite as healthy as if you took things from your own garden, but it’s what makes it possible to support the population that we’ve managed to amass. Even then it isn’t enough!

        However, all of this does not equal a major conspiracy, nor is it evil. While I will also agree with you that the government has its share of corrupt politicians and their personal agendas, I doubt they’re out to get you. They’re in it for the money, yes, and maybe a blurb in a history textbook, but they’re not trying to kill the populace. The world couldn’t work if “the system” was comprised of honest folk. Everything would fall apart.

        Of course, I realise there is NO point in telling you all of this, because as soon as anyone provides you an argument to the contrary of your own personal beliefs, you’ll scream “conspiracy” and plug your ears. Jim Humble, you, and the rest of his followers are all just conspiracy theorists who can’t take the time to do proper research if you think it might disprove your theory.

        But when you get right down to it, all of this is irrelevant. Humans have been fucking each other over since we learned how to kill things (so, you know, before we were humans). Why would we stop now? Because after 36,000+ years of being dicks, we suddenly had a collective change of heart? Or because YOU think certain people are trying to conspire against the masses, and they HAVE to listen to someone as educated as yourself? Please. Get over yourself, and try to enjoy life, would you?

        Also stop clogging up my inbox with your asinine and frankly wildly unrelated arguments. This discussion is about MMS; not the FDA, not GM foods, not Vaccines, and not paranoia. Wanna talk about that stuff, start your own blog and do it there. Feel free to discuss MMS or even Homeopathy here, but keep it limited to that as best you can.

  23. Paul Morgan December 7, 2010 at 8:49 pm #

    Ania,
    Your previous postings have shown you to be deluded and your latest contribution does nothing to contradict this. You should know if you do proper scientific research that there is no evidence to show a link between vaccinations and gut damage or autism.
    http://www.csicop.org/si/show/anti-vaccination_movement/
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autistic_enterocolitis

    I would suspect that the stool test for vaccine remnants is another example of quackery, like hair analysis:-
    http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/hair.html
    http://www.quackwatch.org/search/webglimpse.cgi?ID=1&query=vaccine

    • Ania December 7, 2010 at 10:48 pm #

      Paul, it’s obvious that it’s hard to really understand and accept what I wrote above as fact in terms of my nephew and inferred that it’s some more delusion on my part; I realise this may be so difficult as it flies right in the face of everything that doctors et al are trained for. THE NHS including doctors and such highly trained consultants – FAILED HIM, and that is a fact.
      If not for the choice of non NHS treatments he may well have died. The NHS can’t and didn’t treat him as they could do nothing.
      – Tell me how could he have been healed if the NHS didn’t treat him? What is it that has worked?
      He is healed by using non pharmacides which is proof enough of what works and what doesn’t; this doesn’t need peer reviewed scientific studies to show it works as my nephew is alive and very healthy. I’m at a loss to see how this sort of actual living proof shows that I’m deluded.
      – Explain to me why has this healing been possible? And all without using the pharmacological poisons that doctors get incentivised to peddle on their unwitting and uninformed guinea pigs, sorry, patients?
      No-one has ever and is ever able to answer these simple questions – because there is no answer but one which flies in the face of what modern medicine stands for. Non allopathic treatment regimes as per what my nephew underwent/undergoes and many other people that I know, actually DO work and without any dangerous side effects – and for those in the mainstream medical profession, it’s such a hard pill to swallow.

      • Judge Judy December 7, 2010 at 10:50 pm #

        Healing is not understood Ania and those who tell you otherwise are deluded.

      • Paul Morgan December 8, 2010 at 8:04 am #

        Ania – tell us what “stool testing” was done! I can’t find anything on the Internet about it. This would pull in all available published information. Not even the quack websites such as Natural News or Curezone mention anything. Searching for this on anti-vaccination websites through Google comes up with nothing!
        Speaking plainly, you have “proved” nothing by posting your anecdotes. If you have been reading the posts on this blog and reading up about evidence-based medicine, you should realise that anecdotes are not evidence.
        You are talking nonsense. However, given your previous posts and these recent posts, I’m not surprised at your continued state of delusion.

    • Waterwise December 8, 2010 at 10:12 am #

      This sir is an outright lie. Let us examine the words of Professor Kent Woods, Chief Executive of the MHRA, who instructs those administering the Cervarix vaccine to report adverse reactions as “psychogenic” in other words imagined.

      To emphasise the vileness of this assertion one only needs to research the contents of this particular vaccine and the so called clinical trials (human experiments) where the constituent ingredients were derived.

      I do not have tie right now, but will post the range of symptoms designated as psychogenic later, they are in all respects, further evidence of the evil being deployed and agin this is further evidenced by another member of my extended family.

  24. Paul Morgan December 7, 2010 at 8:34 pm #

    Waterwise,
    It would seem that you wouldn’t recognise scientific evidence if it slapped you in the face! You comment that charlatans hurl abuse – clearly you are incapable of seeing the irony in your statement, given what you posted about Rhys and myself. I will not debate the subject of Rhys’s health with a fool such as you. Rhys has already answered your questions.
    You are totally clueless with your statements on healthcare matters, with about as much credibility as saying the earth is flat. Before opening your mouth again, try to engage your brain (I realise this may be difficult for you).
    Andrew Wakefield was struck off for committing research fraud and for conducting unethical research. Here is the transcript of the GMC investigation:-
    http://www.gmc-uk.org/static/documents/content/Wakefield__Smith_Murch.pdf
    Perhaps, however, you think that only “Big Pharma” are capable of research fraud? Are you incapable of believing that others could be guilty of similar crimes? As Puztai is not a doctor, his case is totally different.
    I suggest you take the advice of those who have responded to your vitriolic outpouring of hate by stop posting about subjects that you clearly have no idea about.
    I have taken the Hippocratic Oath and abide by its principles. I have nothing to feel guilty about.
    You state that you have “30 years of professional work with living systems” – perhaps you could explain what this work is and what your qualifications are?
    As for being a compassionate person, that is extremely difficult to believe given your posts which are full of sickening hate.

    • Waterwise December 8, 2010 at 10:03 am #

      Paul, Yet again you seek to open your comments with derision
      “It would seem that you wouldn’t recognise scientific evidence if it slapped you in the face!”

      If that were the case, then I would have failed to achieve what I have. But what is denied or ignored within your comments, is that the sciences of today in many areas have become both distorted and corrupt through the control of its publications.

      The litany of disastrous results from the vaccination programmes dating back to their origins and go hand in hand with what can only be described as a silent war on humanity, or at least certain races and cultures within it.

      The GMC have lost all integrity in respect of the way they have colluded in the attack on Dr Andrew Wakefield and others. More significantly, I can find not other doctors or medical professions that have been given access to the media, that have spoken out publicly against these venomous procedures. Now given that the basic ingredients included are substances that even ley people understand to be undesirable and that the entire system promoting them has been shown to be deeply corrupted, it beggars belief that no one speaks out for the victims.

      I have looked at Dr Wakefield’s work and he along with others have not only demonstrated a strong link between gastro-intestinal problems and both neurological and endocrine system disorders.

      I would also point out to readers that the reporting of adverse reactions for other vaccines has been subverted and this too appears in all respects to come from a centralised system that distorts the truth and applies censorship. If you want proof of this, I will be happy to oblige. Indeed it has reached the point where the evidence for inflicted harm should by rights have led to the perpetrators being subjected to criminal prosecution under common law as well as the laws of tort.

      Since readers only need to examine the declared reactions to be expected from vaccines, it is obvious that harm is being both inflicted and admitted, thus those like you that have sworn the hippocratic oath have broken it.

      Finally, my posts contain no hatred, simply the observations of some one that acknowledges that in these times, we are witnessing many millions if not billions of people being harmed and worse by cabals of centralised powers. It is my own compassion for the victims of genocidal wars, of the kidnap and torture of so called “suspects”, the never ending litany of medical professionals that have become so brainwashed into the given procedures as to be blind to what resides behind the scenes.

      Throughout history, this system has murdered those that have spoken out and sought to thwart the agenda and this demonic game continues.

      The people who recognise the dangers embedded within pharmacidal medicine should have the right to choose alternatives, but this thread appears in all respects to be part of a campaign to destroy those things.

      If Rhys’s problems do stem from the vaccines, a point which given the known toxicity of their ingredients is quite likely, then what does it say for the training given to the millions of medically trained practitioners.

      After all, how else could he and the millions of other sufferers with this and similar ailments have come about. Such things occur because of insults to the living system and their incidence can be plotted against a number of potential sources. But the overwhelmingly obvious aspect of this, is that through vaccines, substances are injected to the body, by passing natural defences.

      The hatred you would so much love to ascribe to my postings, has its source, but not from me. Instead the evidence of where it comes from can be traced to many of the problems facing our world and its people.

  25. Judge Judy December 7, 2010 at 1:53 pm #

    You may want to consider that rather than this “I’m right. You are wrong.” bickering, some very wise people using Integral Theory a la Ken Wilber are working not only medicine out but law, business, etc. Yes, there is a developing discipline named “Integral Medicine,” not to be confused with “Alternative Medicine” or “Integrative Medicine” based upon, as I mentioned, Integral Theory and the work of Ken Wilber and others.

  26. Paul Morgan December 6, 2010 at 11:32 pm #

    Waterwise,
    Where is any of the evidence I have posted, in any way, inaccurate or misleading? If you have real, verifiable, credible evidence to that effect, please post it here. Put up or shut up.

    • Waterwise December 7, 2010 at 12:29 am #

      The inaccuracies are in your overtly compliant subservience to the ridiculous per review process and the continued deployment of poisonous interventions and concoctions.

      Those that come here to assist in providing remedy, especially to young sufferers of gastro-intestinal disorders, didn’t come here to fight with you, but to draw your attention to the distortions that are overwhelming the healing sciences.

      As for evidence, I am the living breathing evidence along with all those I have shown. Our numbers are growing Pul and there is nothing that you, the FDA, WHO or any of the plethora of elitist puppets that now advocate population reduction.

      So your evidence is based upon an empirical system that is centrally controlled where as my own and others here, is based upon our life experiences. So the question is, do you put your life into the trust of a book published by unknown powers, or the living that are the very cause for your own existence.

      And where pray would you expect to find a peer reviewed paper that exposes the corruption of the pharmaceutical corporations and their collusion with the WHO (as exposed earlier this year over the swine flu bioweapon).

      You should go and listen to Huxley, Orwell and Wells.

      • MikeTheInfidel December 7, 2010 at 12:34 am #

        The point of a system being empirical is that it *cannot* be centrally controlled. The evidence is available to everyone.

        If you think that no skeptics are attacking the WHO, FDA, or pharma companies for their misdeeds, you are *delusional*.

      • Mick December 7, 2010 at 12:45 am #

        Waterwise

        Do you mind if I use your previous couple of comments for a lecture I’m preparing on conspiracy theorists ? I find my students don’t believe that ppl will publish comments like these, and you clearly are sincere in your beliefs that there is a New World Order trying to implement population reduction. If you do not wish me to quote you please advise..

      • Waterwise December 7, 2010 at 12:49 am #

        And this response is to the entity MikeHypercube.

        Please forgive me for any congestion on your email box.

        Perhaps this though is only occurring because I will always reserve the right to defend peoples capacity to look after themselves. And so when I see a contrived attack on those same people, I will stand at their vanguard and denounce what I se as a sickness that now impacts upon literally billions of people.

        I do not regard the killing or maiming of infants a tedious matter! And perhaps rather than label the words I put down here as tosh, perhaps you should place real substance instead. Such a tactic is both slovenly and dishonourable.

        My education is perhaps not what you think, I have my bits of paper too you know, along with a repertoire of living projects that serve as all the evidence I need to substantiate my capacities in terms of both mechanical and the living sciences.

        This thread, is just one more of the locations where the truth as to what is being done to us, is all too obvious and none can now refute what is intended.

        As for my intellectual capacities, well since all you have brought forth is derogatory rhetoric in the face of known abuse by medical doctrines one has to ask, what on this earth is your intent. MMS is safe and efficacious, just as any number of other remedies promoted and used outside the pharmacidal depopulation agenda.

        And finally, the bad things come out AFTER innocent victims are sacrificed and I say NO MORE. Such contrivances demand an immediate and strong challenge. I have born witness to too many injured children to even contemplate remaining silent about such things.

      • Waterwise December 7, 2010 at 12:53 am #

        MikeTheInfidel The problem is that the present day empirical system is centrally guided through research granting and further subverted by the selection for peer review process.

        The reason for drawing attention to the illegitimacy of the FDA is that it is clearly not what it claims to be and I am gladdened to learn what you state about skeptics. After all I am a skeptic too, all good science is based upon the same.

      • Waterwise December 7, 2010 at 1:01 am #

        Mick
        Rather than present a lecture about conspiracy theorists, I would be happy to actually attend your lecture or any public debate on these issues. You will need to allocate a few hours because the evidence we can present is overwhelming.

        Those that label individuals like me as conspiracy theorists invariably negate to make mention of our capacity to forecast and expose the extents of corruption prevailing now or the harm being done. So do not quote me, allow me to actually attend and present just one aspect of the perversions occurring now.

        More importantly, such a label (esp. when used in a derogatory way) seeks not to provide a path for the betterment of this place and the times we live through. No instead it is designed to attempt to reduce our capacity to continue to dismantle the illusions controlling so much of humanity. It will not succeed of course.

      • Mick December 7, 2010 at 11:04 am #

        Waterwise

        The lecture will be in Australia, and as far as I know will only be available online to enrolled students at the university. I do not intend to be sucked into name-calling as you have done quite enough of that already, and any reader of these comments can decide for themself whether you protesteth too much. I am very aware of the ‘overwhelming’ evidence for a number of health ‘conspiracies’, but it’s just that I find them an intriguing sociocultural phenomenon rather than convincing in and of themselves.

      • Waterwise December 7, 2010 at 11:50 am #

        Mick

        What you seem to be engaged in, is something we have seen elsewhere. If you are going to educate or disseminate information then to attempt to discredit the vast numbers that recognise the activities of the like of the Rockerfeller Foundation.

        I doubt that your students will gain the benefit of the well documented research done by so many. I doubt that they will hear of the brave work of people like Eustace Mullins or so many others.

        When the medical fraternities come to acknowledge that they have been subverted by the indoctrination to upside down medical procedures, then and only then will the virtuous intent of the people seeking to become practitioners.

        We even have Strategic Health Authorities bribing young people into taking vaccines and senior health officials beginning to insist that all children must be vaccinated before they can attend school. THis based upon the rather odd idea of herd immunity and notion that in itself infers that the vaccines do not work.

        I think if you read through the comments I have made, you will find no name calling. It is something that is all too readily observable in the posts of those advocating these insidious impositions.

        If you and others cannot see that the numbers of toxic substances included within these medicines, food and water are causing more disease, then you will do no more than continue to serve an agenda that is intent on genocide through soft biological and chemical weapons.

        If the rising of people to seek o look after themselves without subscribing to present day medical practices is evidence of anything, it is that growing numbers of the general public are waking up and increasing seeking out alternative means of providing themselves with health care based upon much older insights that do not cause harm.

        Look around, you will see the increasing prolific use of chemical interventions being forced onto people both young and old. Consent is often obtained without full disclosure and as such is fraudulent. The underlying intention is not to improve health, on the contrary the results as to the condition of people, the explosion in allergies and life time drugging is all the evidence required.

        So I have to ask you, at what point will those like you acknowledge the evidence of harm being done. These things have already impacted on my own extended family to their detriment and even my own doctor agrees in private. He also acknowledges that if he were to speak out, then he would be putting his career at risk.

        Likewise, a friend that is a practising dentist has now realised that the doctrines of the Royal College of Surgeons and the way in which they will act upon other dentists if they do not toe the line is also very significant. I mentioned fluorine compounds earlier in these threads, add in the use of mercury (now banned in other countries) as the evidence of the insult it releases mounts.

        This boy Rhys, has been diagnosed with a condition that historically we only saw in the elderly and infirm. Such things are not accidental

  27. Paul Morgan December 6, 2010 at 11:28 pm #

    Waterwise,
    You really are deluded!
    You spout absolute bollocks about subjects you know nothing about. A typical alt-med, anti-vax, conspiracy theory fool.
    Andrew Wakefield was struck off because he was caught out for committing fraudulent and unethical research.
    As Abraham Lincoln said “It is better to remain silent and be thought of as a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt”.
    As for your comments regarding my son’s health, I can only say that you are a disgrace to the human race. Take a good, long, hard look at yourself. I really don’t know how you can live with yourself. If there is a way of banning you from this blog, I would advise my son to do so, along with others who express similar views. The views that you and others express are sickening and disgusting and the hate and vitriol you express only bears comparison to the treatment of ethnic minorities by Nazi Germany. I only hope that you have a treatable psychiatric illness, rather than being psychopaths. Now I suggest you go and sit in a darkened room and don your tin-foil hat.

    • Waterwise December 6, 2010 at 11:50 pm #

      Andrew Wakefield was struck off for denouncing the MMR vaccine. A concoction containing mercury. HIs research was not fraudulent and he was struck off on the basis of concocted allegations.

      The same treatment was handed out to Arphad Putsii, a scientist of forty years experience who disclosed the truth as to the dangers of genetically modified potatoes.

      I am a father of seven. Two of them were not with me during their early years and were subjected to these perniciously evil impositions and one of them now verges on Aspergers.

      The remainder of my children are full of vitality and health. It is those that have allowed themselves to become blinded to the insainties prel;evant in modern medical interventions that are a disgrace.

      Now lets see if you can answer that question. DId you get your son vaccinated?
      You had better answer this time, anything else will reveal much more about you.

      And incidentally I do not hate you, I am simply disgusted at what has been done to those that seek to serve others. It is you that has sought to attack others that choose to use their own means of maintaining health. So what I have posted here, you should regard as nothing more or less than you deserve.

      It is also the strategy of a charlatan to hurl insult and abuse.

      As for your comment relating to the events of NAZI germany, may I remind you to go and look up the corporate entities that Bayer, Baxters International and other evolved from.

      What these pharmacide manufacturers do to the animals they test, they also do to human beings and I have all the proof of that needed to establish it as fact.

      Lastly you infer psychiatry, the invented science of the likes of the supremacist Frued, a discipline that never cures and pumps its victims with poisons. Dosing little children with Ritalin because they have an imbalance of brian chemistry! Utterly amazing, Beethoven would never have left us his gifts had such things happened in his time.

      What should happen now, is that you should revisit the so called side effects and substance of the medicines being given to your boy.

      • Chunkylimey December 7, 2010 at 12:01 am #

        “who disclosed the truth as to the dangers of genetically modified potatoes.”

        What that when we bake them really hard you’ll still appear to be a more dense vegetable?

      • Chunkylimey December 7, 2010 at 12:04 am #

        “invented science”

        As opposed to what other kind of science?

        The one that your imaginary friend “God” gave to you?

        I’d be laughing at your idiocy more if I wasn’t concerned someone like you was at large in public and a threat to the rest of the species.

        Please for goodness sake don’t breed. I mean normally your personality would drive people away; but even if your tempted by some poor mentally handicapped victim don’t do it. Your own misery is clearly bad enough; don’t force it on anyone else.

      • MikeHypercube December 7, 2010 at 12:21 am #

        Waterwise, will you stop posting the same tedious list of grievances over and over and over a-friggin-gain! You’re blocking up my mail box with tosh and I wouldn’t mind if it was just the same tosh once, not over and over in slightly different words.

        We get it. The world is full of bad people you don’t understand, doing bad things. As a result it is safer to ignore everything that is said by people who have a better education than you because they are all in on the plot, and it’s better to just believe whatever anyone says who comes along and who tells you that they are not in on that plot.

        Of course there is a grain of truth in some of the bad things you say happen out there in the big wild world. We know. Does that make it a good idea to swallow any old tosh just because that’s easier than belatedly educating yourself in the basic facts of science that your schooling seems to have omitted? That’s your call really, but don’t bother flooding the rest of us with messages about stuff we’ve heard before, from each and every person who has given up on this mythical “establishment” and bought into the efficacy of the scientifically random. It’s point for point the same as the last message and the hundred before that from people in your predicament. Get an education, you’ll be amazed. You will discover that the world is not full of some faceless bunch of “them” who are out to bamboozle you. There are bad things that happen in medicine, but unlike the bad things that quacks get up to, these come out into the open in the end. That’s why you know about them. With a bit of reading, you’ll even be able to read the research for yourself (it’s not limited to some secretive priesthood; knowledge is free to the curious). The first clue this is happening is when you are able to critique individual cases where things have been done wrong, and not flood everyone’s mailbox with this word salad of all the same stuff that so many others have already flooded us with. Good luck!

      • Waterwise December 7, 2010 at 1:06 am #

        Chunkeylimey, is that supposed to be a serious question, or are you absent of the capacity to actually debate.

        I wonder what you and others know about bacillus thunbergerinsii and its known impact upon the gut and endocrine system.

        To be honest you should be more concerned about the things that cause you to express such sentiments. I have encountered a great number of entities like you, they are always a little short on intellectual capacity and seem to be tormented into hurling insult. What ever happened to you to cause such a thing I wonder.

    • Ania December 7, 2010 at 12:15 am #

      @Paul .. I have a nephew who was damaged in his gut by the first (and only set of) childhood vaccines he had … so I have seen at first hand how the insistence of the Dad to have the vaccines CAUSED the serious intestinal health problems that he has suffered with. How do we know? Because of stool tests that were done in the USA as the UK didn’t have the facilities, and which confirmed the ingredients of these vaccines, found resident in his gut. There is your “scientific proof” that you insist on. And this was after the NHS has exhausted ALL possible avenues that they could offer to treat his condition and never offered to do these stool tests. Thus the Dad who INSISTED on his Son having the vaccine has to LIVE WITH the knowledge that on HIS insistence (as he didn’t know any better although others of us did), he massively exacerbated his son’s intestinal health problems. Thank goodness today he knows betterr not to inflict vaccines and the damage they cause on their new baby.
      How do I know? I have had to live with this “health saga” in my own close family for over 7.5 yrs. And fortunately, after having spent thousands of pounds on seeing a highly trained and respected nutritional therapist who has prescribed vitamins, minerals, homeopathy, phyto-biophysics, as well as a complete change of diet cutting out gluten and cows dairy etc, his health is now almost 100%. The NHS told us that he could die from the condition it was so bad at one stage. And yet they had nothing they could do for him. Who gave up on who? They were never able to answer the questions that were asked of them as to the why’s, how’s etc of how to cure it or treat it – without resorting to surgery, invasive tests on a small baby and toxic medicines.
      So I KNOW what I am talking about when I, my family and friends look into and adopt “alternative” ways of treating disease and ailments. Our own ACTUAL experience counts for a LOT more than any peer reviewed scientific papers ever will – as I have seen it with my own eyes and had to live with it in my own family.
      The NHS had NOTHING to offer then and now. Which is why we know WE are on the right track, end of. I just wish others could open their minds and realise that the answers to all our health problems are out there already – and they’re not controlled by Big Pharma or by the NHS, yet. There is no incurable disease; to say otherwise is a travesty.

      • Singe June 8, 2011 at 1:57 pm #

        Perhaps there will be no incurable diseases someday, but there are plenty at the current moment in history which are.

  28. Waterwise December 6, 2010 at 11:17 pm #

    I am listening right now to a lady that suffered from Crohn’s. Through the use of natural therapies, she has cured herself, just as I have done.

    I don’t know about you dear reader, but for me that speaks more than a million pages of corporate sponsored scribblings.

    This poor lad Rhys may well have a father that will deny the truth as to what has caused his condition. Like that other maniac Jennens (inventor of small pox vaccine) he may end up killing his own son.

    • Amber K December 6, 2010 at 11:20 pm #

      Waterwise, I’d already surmised you’re a nutjob but now I see that you’re a completely horrible human being as well. I hope you’re banned from this site for making such a nasty accusation. Shame on you.

      • Waterwise December 6, 2010 at 11:55 pm #

        Those around me, my family and very extensive circle of friends know me as some one that is both kind and compassionate but very intolerant of fools and those that serve the genocidal agenda that is a curse to all people.

        If you have nothing other than insult to hurl, then you should know its as water off a ducks back and demonstrates that you have nothing in terms of substance to offer.

        I came here in defence of al people that use their own methods to heal and sustain health. It is what I do and I speak for all those that may become victims of a system that is censoring and preventing people from being able to look after themselves.

        Do you seriously believe it is a good thing to inject infants with formaldehyde, mercury and recombinant DNA proteins?

        Such things are weapons designed to reduce the vitality of our young and this is EXACTLY what we see occurring.

        • Thomas May 14, 2013 at 3:02 am #

          “If you have nothing other than insult to hurl, then you should know its as water off a ducks back and demonstrates that you have nothing in terms of substance to offer.”

          Yeah, Rhys. Stick to the high ground like Waterwise – he says that you serve a genocidal agenda – but he’d never stoop to insulting you.

      • Rhys Morgan December 7, 2010 at 12:10 am #

        First, believe it or not, thimerosal doesn’t contain elemental mercury. It contains ethylmercury which passes out of the body in a couple of weeks.
        It’s a very good preservative for vaccines.
        Second, you’re against recombinant DNA? WTH man?
        I can sort-of understand your hate for what you appear to think was elemental mercury in vaccines, but recombinant DNA? That’s a new hate on me, and an even more illogical one at that.
        Next, this whole “genocidal agenda”? You’ve lost it. You really have. But of course, because you’re so deluded you will refuse to get the psychiatric help that you need lest they “pump you full of poisons” and the like.
        You had an anecdote about your kid starting to show signs of Aspergers and you’d like to blame it on the vaccines. OK, anecdotes aren’t evidence for one, but since that it what people like you deal with, I see your anecdote and raise it – what about all the millions and millions of kids who have been vaccinated with vaccines containing thimerosal and didn’t get autism?
        Finally, I’d like to point out that my Crohn’s is in remission. I can finally grow, finally start living again. No, not thanks to some mystical herb from a land far, far away. From a biologic called infliximab.

      • Waterwise December 7, 2010 at 1:18 am #

        Ethyl mercury! For those that do not know, this is mercury combined into alcohol, you know the substance that when you drink it gives you a head ache!

        Oh but thats okay, these little babies that cry all night afterwards will never be able to tell and the parents stories will be disregarded as anecdotal!

        It is indeed claimed by the less well informed, that the mercury leaves the body within a couple of days.

        Now I wonder why the body seeks to purge it as quickly as possible! Is it perchance because it is recognised as an undesirable insult to the phisiology.

        I also wonder exactly what damage might occur whilst it is still resident IN THE BRAIN and other fatty tissue. Now go take a careful look at vaccinated children, especially those that have been subjected to the vaccines containing such a pernicious poison. You will readily observe that they have suffered cerebral ischemia (akin to a mild stroke) with the result that one side of their face becomes lop sided.

        Before I knew what I do now, one of my own youngest was poisoned in this manner and has manifest the exact same thing. Such a thing will enrage all fathers once known and it was this that has led me to scrutinise the malpractices that calls itself medicine.

    • Rhys Morgan December 6, 2010 at 11:51 pm #

      No no David, oops, I mean Waterwise.
      Even if my father had not got me vaccinated, I would have chosen to be vaccinated myself, because I’m not some conspiracy theory loon who’d rather believe that a lack of scientific papers is evidence than actually existent scientific papers being evidence.
      Next, onto your spurious claims.
      1) That the vaccination caused my Crohn’s.
      – Got any evidence for that? No? Then STFU.
      2) That the medication for my Crohn’s is killing me.
      – Got any evidence for that? No? Then STFU.
      3) That my dad is ‘denying me the truth’ of my Crohn’s?
      – Got any evidence for that? No? Then STFU.
      4. That natural remedies will cure my Crohn’s.
      – Got any evidence for that? No? Then STFU.
      Finally, I’d like to make the point that one anecdote in which a woman says she is cured of Crohn’s is speaks more than a million research papers, not all of them, may I add, sponsored by pharmaceutical companies?
      I think that just highlights your delusions.

      • Amber K December 7, 2010 at 12:14 am #

        Rhys, as anecdotes are clearly evidence to Waterwise, I will refute his argument that vaccine’s caused your Crohn’s disease.

        My son is fully vaccinated and does not have Crohn’s disease, autism, juvenile onset diabetes, rabies or any other condition. I have met Waterwise’s burden of proof that vaccines do not cause any of these conditions.

        My son has also never contracted pertussis, tetanus, Hep B, chicken pox, measles, mumps or rubella and has never had the flu. I’m sure that’s just a coincidence.

      • Waterwise December 7, 2010 at 12:16 am #

        A little late for you to be up isn’t it Rhys?!! (Hmmm Paul you should let the boy speak for himself!)

        As for evidence for the vaccines given to you being causally linked to your gastro-intestinal disorder, take a careful look through the ingredients in each of them. All the evidence necessary is to be found there.

        Now go to the electronic medical compendium and read through the pharmacology, the ingredients, excipients and side effects of the medicines they have put you on.

        Finally, I would suggest you read a little more about that healer and philosopher called Hippocrates, he has left us a great legacy of means of curing, especially through the use of plants. Especially young plants, sprouted seeds. Such things are powerful and cannot do you any harm… let me repeat ANY HARM

        Paul you seem to have been left without the capacity to question the dogmas, or alternatively, you should be regarded as nothing more than a shill to the poisoners that profit from the sickening

        Finally, the highest form of evidence within a court of law, is the evidence given by the witnesses to events. As such this so called anecdotal evidence is far more relevant than you would have other believe. The concerned parents that watch their children become ill after receiving vaccines, really are the very best witnesses and I would listen to them first (as all doctors should).

        But you, instead seem to prefer to belief the scribblings of dubious publications, publications controlled and subjected to censor.

        What ever happened to your capacity to think!

        • Singe June 8, 2011 at 2:00 pm #

          “I would suggest you read a little more about that healer and philosopher called Hippocrates, he has left us a great legacy of means of curing, especially through the use of plants. Especially young plants, sprouted seeds. Such things are powerful and cannot do you any harm… let me repeat ANY HARM”

          Try eating some nightshade and see how little harm that does you. Hmm, who else ate it back around Hippocrates. Oh yeah, Socrates. Did him a bit of harm.

      • Waterwise December 7, 2010 at 1:28 am #

        Amber K
        There are many children that do not manifest problems for a very long time, even throughout childhood. But given that we know that mutagenic compounds are included, along with viruses known to cause leukaemia and a host of other dis-eases, I doubt very much that your son will have escaped.

        Once the ingredients and methods of production are known, most sensible people can see exactly why people such as me come to denounce a practice that is fundamentally flawed.

        There is absolutely no evidence that ANY of these vaccines have prevented illnesses and every indication that they are the cause of many. (go research the so called Spanish Flu).

        It is curious that according to most sources, Crohn’s disease cannot be cured and even according to Paul (aka) Rhys will only go into remission. Yet when people bring non harmful and more importantly readily available inexpensive remedies, they are attacked. Now why might that be. Is there something occurring hre that seeks to support the prevention of freedom of choice. And if so, what force is it.

        As I have stated, I have used MMS and it is benign. The principle of saturating body plasma with free oxygen is known to assist in destroying anaerobic sites where pathogens of numerous forms will be eliminated.

        Such a method is far better than injection moulds (anti-biotics) that destroy gut flora.

  29. Paul Morgan December 6, 2010 at 10:46 pm #

    @Waterwise,
    It’s pretty clear that you haven’t read this article fully and the comments that have followed from real scientists and real doctors.
    If you wish to make claims for so-called “alternative medicines”, please provide real, verifiable, credible scientific evidence to back up your claims. The problem with these “alternative medicines” an “alternative therapies” is that there is no evidence from properly conducted scientific trials to support their use. Sometimes, there are trials which show them to be of no use or no better than placebo (e.g. homeopathy). Mostly, however, there are simply no trials. One could debate about the reasons for a lack of trials, but the financial one is probably the most feeble excuse put out by “alternative medicine” advocates – this is a multi-million pound business. “Alternative medicine” with evidence to show efficacy is no longer “alternative”.

    You compound your error by then posting nonsense and rubbish about vaccinations and aspartame. It would seem from your post that you are prepared to believe all the ludicrous conspiracy theories that abound on the Internet and are gullible enough to fall prey to all the scammers and quacks who feed on the chronically sick, vulnerable and desperate.
    I suggest you look at http://www.quackwatch.org so that you might open your mind to the scams and quackery that have no benefits, expose their victims to harm (directly or indirectly), and just serve to exploit people.

    • Waterwise December 6, 2010 at 10:47 pm #

      This reply is to Paul Morgan
      “This is indeed the planet earth and as I write, the numbers of people suffering under the so called medical impositions is in the billions. Pharmaceutical trials on both animals are a violation. Those conducted upon humans, occur all too often in places where the people will only gain access to medicines if they sign up for trials and these are invariably in places where their subsequent injuries or even deaths go unreported.

      Trials on serving military personnel are ongoing and resulted in the Gulf War syndrome through the use of squalene oils (now in Cervarix & Gardasil) that are now being deployed to our young women by deception.

      Those of you posting here on behalf of what is laughably called “conventional medicine” (although its appearance is an entirely modern phenomena), should know that the real issues causing so much dis-ease are rarely addressed and that furthermore, those pharmaceutical corporations have very dubious beginnings. e.g. Baxters International can be traced back to I G Farben (I G Auschwitz).

      Your medical maniacs killed my mother, they gave her cancer of the intestines through the seasonal flu vaccine. They never cured her, instead she was given more poison and drugged into oblivion. All paid for by our taxes.

      One of my daughters nearly had her newborn daughter snatched by the SS because she did not want to take a highly risky prophylactic imposition that was not needed (statistically proven). Her infant was subsequently made seriously ill and received substances that without a strong control over her diet, may well have an impact on her later in life.

      This is what happens when those selected to medicate people are chosen on their capacity to accept rubbish for truth. It is only the discerning amongst their number that reveal what it is to be a healer, and look at what happens to them.

      Dr Andrew Wakefield, hounded and vilified by the GMC! Why because his work threatened the eugenics agenda. Yet his work has been not only repeated and shown to be based upon good science in a growing number of places throughout the globe.”

      WHat you have posted is both deceitful and inaccurate. Cancer is one of the modern day epidemics and modern medicines capacity to cure people is negligible if not only occurs because the recipient of the poisonous treatments has sufficient resilience to recover.

      Cancer is curable but unfortunately for the less well informed and duped, it is one of the biggest money spinners and means to cull populations.

      Go and look up the impact of fluorine compounds in the environment and then come back here and tell me why the Royal College of Surgeons recommends that it is given to people through drinking water and dentistry.

      This is what your perverse system is doing you know, actively engaging in killing people and cancer is just one of the strings on its discordant fiddle.

    • Waterwise December 6, 2010 at 11:14 pm #

      This is a message for Paul

      Tell us now, did you give or have some one give your own son the vaccines?
      This may well be related to his condition and the drugs prescribed for Crohn’s disease will ensure his premature death.

      Real doctors used to swear the hippocratic oath, did you?

      Physician heal thyself. Reliance upon a corrupted peer review process that is owned and controlled by vested interests, is nothing as evidence when it comes to my own health and living experience.

      The term quack, do you know where it is derived. It comes from the description of those that can do no more than parrot the junk pumped into their heads.

      I have 30 years of professional work with living systems and have already established a legacy that will remain for hundreds of years. I work with nature not against it as you have been taught to do. And when I do, I am rewarded and this is becasue I work in symbiosis with living rather than attempting to modify what creation has wrought.

      Nonsense about Aspartame! Now go and show me what the components break down to within the body. I have helped at least a dozen people from removing themelves from its addiction. Each and every one of them was suffering with sever headaches and visual impairment.

      “ludicrous conspiracy theories”
      If you deny what is happening to our people right now and that in all respects it has been achieved by design, then you are worse than a charlatan.
      If your boy is ill, your own indoctrinated condition may well be responsible.

      In other words “you are culpable”.

      The evidence to this will be found when you go and look at the ingredients injected into him when he was an infant.

      Your quackwatch.org is known to me, it is infested with idiots that actually believe the utter rubbish that spews forth from the medical mainstream.

  30. Waterwise December 6, 2010 at 10:33 pm #

    I am not saying that we do not need medically trained people to provide aid after traumatic injury, but the over reliance on surgery now, has led to a situation where the reliance upon natural healing processes has been abandoned.

    Modern medicine seems to view the body as a machine that is faulty by design and so intervenes before fully considering the causative factors involved in dis-ease. There are very few people I have encountered that go under the knife, that do not end up going under again and are prescribed life long synthetic compounds that slowly poison them.

    • Amber K December 6, 2010 at 10:42 pm #

      Waterwise

      “There are very few people I have encountered that go under the knife, that do not end up going under again and are prescribed life long synthetic compounds that slowly poison them.”

      While the vast majority of what you wrote, is not supported by any evidence, this quote is patently ridiculous. How would you know? Do you ask everyone you meet if they’ve had surgery? I have, but you’d never know it because I’m perfectly healthy and require no medications.

      Now if I ever do require medication should I blame it on the surgery I had at the age of twelve? Would that count? Just silly.

      • Waterwise December 6, 2010 at 11:23 pm #

        How do I know. Well because I have just watched as two of my own extended family have been killed. Another is close to death and yet another has a steadily degrading condition.

        One went to his doctor with a back injury, within two years he was dead from cancer. The surgery went wrong, an infection and massive doses of pain killers. Diabetes set in and after months of more medicines, cancer was diagnosed. What my sister went through nursing him, was hell on earth, let alone the torture that he must have experienced.

        Now go down your own street and survey the numbers being prescribed chronic medication. The answer may surprise you.

        I would only add that I am in contact with a vast number of people both here in these islands and across the world. The same story is ever present.

  31. Waterwise December 6, 2010 at 9:39 pm #

    I have read, albeit briefly through this thread and notice that once again, we have the manifestation of the allopathic pushers versus those of us, more keenly aware of the numerous healing methods many of which surpass modern biocidal concoctions ion both efficacy and more importantly in that they follow the philosophy of Hippocrates.

    Rhys, I would have to say to you, that there are some things in this world, that may appear as one thing, but when properly scrutinised,are shown to be completely opposite.

    To begin with, in your video you express shock at the notion that some of us, prefer to provide our own medical care and should by rights have the freedom to use any substance upon ourselves or our families that we are confident will provide healing. You will also find that we do not “practice medicine” since the very idea that in this day and age, the medical profession seem incapable of curing their patients.

    You also refer to the FDA as though it is some kind of respectable entity and here I would suggest to you that its corridors have long since become infested with former officers of corporations from the pharmacidal manufacturers and some of these (e.g. Donald Rumsfeld former exec. of GD Searle, once in office ensured that the substance known as Aspartame received approval despite it causing over 90 adverse reactions within recipients.

    Few people realise that the plethora of poisonous substances being peddled by modern day medicine all carry adverse reactions, yet before these impositions, the traditional knowledge of plant lore and healing had ensured that populations for more than ten millennia had grown without such impositions.

    Now to be more specific about MMS and most importantly, your own condition. There was a time, in the not too distant past, that the sick, provided they were well enough, would travel great distances to “take the waters”. Now these practices stretch back again, many millennia. Indeed one of the locations that this occurred is now known as Bath, a place of very special interest in this respect. Now what was special about “Aqua Sulis”, so much so that the Romans occupied it and built an entire settlement around it. The answer is the mineral content of the water.

    Now let us move on to the so called qualified medical practitioners and the plethora of toxic allopathic substances peddled. Has it not occurred to you, or those assisting you in the preparation of your scripts, that we are seeing larger and larger numbers of people suffering apparently incurable dis-ease in our times. Epidemics of cancer, diabetes, obesity and any number of neurological disorders are a plague in the modern age. And what pray are the answers proffered by the modern day practices, toxic substances that are designed to alleviate the symptom but almost without exception cause other effects many of which lead to the prescribing of even more substances many of which are known carcinogens, mutagenic compounds and neurological poisons, but above all, THAT DISRUPT THE GASTRO-INTESTINAL SYSTEM!

    Does that ring any bells, the disruption of the gastro-intestinal system. And seriously if you are going to express outrage, then perhaps I should point you to the FDA approved! vaccine Cervarix, which amongst a host of other unpleasant substances, contains ALUMINIUM HYDROXIDE, a known irritant and one that is known to impact the brain!

    The processes involved with MMS and other plasma oxygen boosting substances are very significant. Indeed there are many remedies that have been known about for thousands of years that remain in use to those that never need to go and see the pharma sponsored doctors.

    • Waterwise December 6, 2010 at 9:40 pm #

      And just to add some veracity to my expressed opinion, I speak from my own experience. For more than twenty five years, I suffered with a gastro-intestinal and digestive ailment. I did as you did, went to the doctors and was told (after exhaustive investigations) that there was nothing they could do and that I should expect to have to take a medicine for the rest of my days. By the time I reached my forties, I was overweight, had tendonitus, rhumatoid artheritus developing in my hands and knees plus of course that digestive and bowel condition.

      Much of what I was suffering with, had much more to do with what I was eating and the lifestyle I was engaged in (driving a desk or a car existing withina high pressure career).

      Then I remembered and put into action not only what I had been taught as a youngster, but researched many aspects of alternative therapies. I am now back at the weight I was when I was 22, as fit as a fiddle, no arthritis, no digestive problems, no tendonitus (despite that I have returned to more physical work).

      Now had I relied upon the indoctrinated practitioners, I suspect that my condition would have remained as it was or even deteriorated further.

      I have a question for you too. Please tell me, have you had all your vaccines? If you have, then perhaps you should go and look through that little red book they gave your mum, and look up the said vaccines and their ingredients. A pound to a pinch of pigeon poop says that your Crohn’s disease is linked to the vaccines and the corrupt foods you have been unwittingly fed.

      There is a silent war being waged, it is the global conspiracy, but ths is not just opinion and conjecture, no it is what has been written by the likes of the UN & WHO.

      Finally one last point in relation to the FDA, you do know that the same entity has approved both GM foods and Bovine Growth hormone within foods. Both of which are poisonous corruptions.

      • Judge Judy December 6, 2010 at 10:27 pm #

        This is all very interesting Waterwise and I would add that I am quite grateful to live in this age of surgery. Allopathy has made little or no headway with chronic conditions however.

  32. Waterwise December 6, 2010 at 9:38 pm #

    I have read, albeit briefly through this thread and notice that once again, we have the manifestation of the allopathic pushers versus those of us, more keenly aware of the numerous healing methods many of which surpass modern biocidal concoctions ion both efficacy and more importantly in that they follow the philosophy of Hippocrates.

    Rhys, I would have to say to you, that there are some things in this world, that may appear as one thing, but when properly scrutinised,are shown to be completely opposite.

    To begin with, in your video you express shock at the notion that some of us, prefer to provide our own medical care and should by rights have the freedom to use any substance upon ourselves or our families that we are confident will provide healing. You will also find that we do not “practice medicine” since the very idea that in this day and age, the medical profession seem incapable of curing their patients.

    You also refer to the FDA as though it is some kind of respectable entity and here I would suggest to you that its corridors have long since become infested with former officers of corporations from the pharmacidal manufacturers and some of these (e.g. Donald Rumsfeld former exec. of GD Searle, once in office ensured that the substance known as Aspartame received approval despite it causing over 90 adverse reactions within recipients.

    Few people realise that the plethora of poisonous substances being peddled by modern day medicine all carry adverse reactions, yet before these impositions, the traditional knowledge of plant lore and healing had ensured that populations for more than ten millennia had grown without such impositions.

    Now to be more specific about MMS and most importantly, your own condition. There was a time, in the not too distant past, that the sick, provided they were well enough, would travel great distances to “take the waters”. Now these practices stretch back again, many millennia. Indeed one of the locations that this occurred is now known as Bath, a place of very special interest in this respect. Now what was special about “Aqua Sulis”, so much so that the Romans occupied it and built an entire settlement around it. The answer is the mineral content of the water.

    Now let us move on to the so called qualified medical practitioners and the plethora of toxic allopathic substances peddled. Has it not occurred to you, or those assisting you in the preparation of your scripts, that we are seeing larger and larger numbers of people suffering apparently incurable dis-ease in our times. Epidemics of cancer, diabetes, obesity and any number of neurological disorders are a plague in the modern age. And what pray are the answers proffered by the modern day practices, toxic substances that are designed to alleviate the symptom but almost without exception cause other effects many of which lead to the prescribing of even more substances many of which are known carcinogens, mutagenic compounds and neurological poisons, but above all, THAT DISRUPT THE GASTRO-INTESTINAL SYSTEM!

    Does that ring any bells, the disruption of the gastro-intestinal system. And seriously if you are going to express outrage, then perhaps I should point you to the FDA approved! vaccine Cervarix, which amongst a host of other unpleasant substances, contains ALUMINIUM HYDROXIDE, a known irritant and one that is known to impact the brain!

    The processes involved with MMS and other plasma oxygen boosting substances are very significant. Indeed there are many remedies that have been known about for thousands of years that remain in use to those that never need to go and see the pharma sponsored doctors.

    And just to add some veracity to my expressed opinion, I speak from my own experience. For more than twenty five years, I suffered with a gastro-intestinal and digestive ailment. I did as you did, went to the doctors and was told (after exhaustive investigations) that there was nothing they could do and that I should expect to have to take a medicine for the rest of my days. By the time I reached my forties, I was overweight, had tendonitus, rhumatoid artheritus developing in my hands and knees plus of course that digestive and bowel condition.

    Much of what I was suffering with, had much more to do with what I was eating and the lifestyle I was engaged in (driving a desk or a car existing withina high pressure career).

    Then I remembered and put into action not only what I had been taught as a youngster, but researched many aspects of alternative therapies. I am now back at the weight I was when I was 22, as fit as a fiddle, no arthritis, no digestive problems, no tendonitus (despite that I have returned to more physical work).

    Now had I relied upon the indoctrinated practitioners, I suspect that my condition would have remained as it was or even deteriorated further.

    I have a question for you too. Please tell me, have you had all your vaccines? If you have, then perhaps you should go and look through that little red book they gave your mum, and look up the said vaccines and their ingredients. A pound to a pinch of pigeon poop says that your Crohn’s disease is linked to the vaccines and the corrupt foods you have been unwittingly fed.

    There is a silent war being waged, it is the global conspiracy, but ths is not just opinion and conjecture, no it is what has been written by the likes of the UN & WHO.

    Finally one last point in relation to the FDA, you do know that the same entity has approved both GM foods and Bovine Growth hormone within foods. Both of which are poisonous corruptions.

    • noodlemaz December 6, 2010 at 10:28 pm #

      Are you seriously telling me that not one doctor recommended you lose weight and eat healthily?
      Those, plus doing some regular exercise, are the things that all medics will recommend in order to be as fit as you can, extenuating circumstances (like being unfortunate enough to inherit difficult genetic conditions, accidents and so on) aside.

      If by ‘corrupt foods’ you mean fast food rubbish, then yes. People should learn how to eat properly, but the fact that some do not and some parents feed their children irresponsibly does not mean that it’s some big state conspiracy to kill you.

      Any doctor worth his salt should be able to give you simple advice to living healthily; that does not have to involve boycotting medicine (when you actually need it) and spending your life’s savings on overpriced health food shop rubbish making claims they can’t substantiate about how good this berry/seed is at helping you sleep, or whatever.

      Don’t eat too much. Move about as much as you can; don’t sit on your arse all day, do some good exercise. What you do eat, try to make it yourself from fairly basic ingredients. Markets are better than supermarkets.
      But a little of what you like won’t do you any harm; whether that’s a pizza after a night out or some ice cream on a difficult day. Just don’t live in McDonald’s (god I hate that place).

      Natural does NOT necessarily equal good/healthy. Synthetic does not always equal bad.

      • Waterwise December 6, 2010 at 10:39 pm #

        The availability to obtain wholesome natural food that is free of residual biocides is becoming more and more difficult. Yet it is known that trace quantities of these compounds (all too often derived from chemical warfare) will interfere with the gut and endocrine system to say nothing of the adverse impact on neurological system.

        There is something else too. In my own journey back to full and youthful health, I returned to the study of the hunter gatherer diet, this includes many wild foods and herbs. These plants contain a far stronger and wider range of phyto-chemicals (substances not taught to dieticians or medical professionals but known to our ancestors).

        A medicine should DO NO HARM. Now go and find me one. Find one that does not have adverse effects or so called side effects.

      • Waterwise December 6, 2010 at 10:56 pm #

        Not one doctor I have encountered has warned people about the dangers within the food sold. They will talk about diet and exercise but never mention the now proven inherent dangers of consuming corrupted foods.

        I like pizza t will make my own from ingredients I can trust rather than the muck peddled by the various retailers out there. Few people realise just how dangerous these substances are and that applies especially to alcoholic beverages.

        Just this one aspect alone has ensured that a good number of people I have come to know have freed themselves from chronic conditions that the doctors failed to cure.

        And specifically in relation to MMS, I have used it too. It works and the underlying principles are very simple to see.

        I have also used H2O2

        I ferment foods as probiotics, KEFIR, APPLE CIDER VINEGAR, SAURKRAUT. Such things are juxtaposed to the actions of anti-biotics and will counter the effects.

      • Waterwise December 6, 2010 at 10:57 pm #

        Not one doctor I have encountered has warned people about the dangers within the food sold. They will talk about diet and exercise but never mention the now proven inherent dangers of consuming corrupted foods.

        I like pizza t will make my own from ingredients I can trust rather than the muck peddled by the various retailers out there. Few people realise just how dangerous these substances are and that applies especially to alcoholic beverages.

        Just this one aspect alone has ensured that a good number of people I have come to know have freed themselves from chronic conditions that the doctors failed to cure.

      • Judge Judy December 6, 2010 at 11:00 pm #

        Will tell you that almost 6 years ago I was told I have cancer. I am still untreated and doing fine. Not one oncologist told me all the many things I discovered on my own to keep healthy. Food was never mentioned. Not even once.

  33. Zeno November 30, 2010 at 3:54 pm #

    Judge Judy said:

    I wasn’t asking for info related to toxicity but numbers of those who have died and been injured by MMS.

    Presumably Jim Humble has set up an independent reporting system so that any adverse effects can be properly documented and dealt with (perhaps with the necessary monetary compensation for any damage done)? That would be the ethical and right thing to do, don’t you agree?

    Or does he just know there will never be any such adverse effects?

    • Judge Judy November 30, 2010 at 4:31 pm #

      @Rhys,

      I asked for deaths AND injuries, not only deaths. Is there another criteria for “dangerous?”

      @Zeno,

      I think it would be wise for Mr. Humble to have liability insurance.

  34. Hughes November 29, 2010 at 7:59 pm #

    Wow! What can you say to somebody who thinks that drinking bleach is a good idea? I guess all you can do is be vigilant and make sure they don’t try to convince anybody else.

    • Judge Judy November 29, 2010 at 8:43 pm #

      Thank you for that Rhys. As I have stated before, I am MMS-agnostic. You may be correct in your fight against this product. I do not know. Your supporters attack others by asking for hard numbers, yet when I ask them for the same they obfuscate. How many deaths can be attributed to MMS? How many injuries that required medical treatment have been reported?

      If close to a million Americans die from causes that can be traced directly to medical intervention every year and no one dies from MMS, how concerned should we be?

      • mms is a scam November 30, 2010 at 5:36 am #

        Maybe people die of diseases not medical intervention.

        Ania — you are so full of crap your eyes must be brown — you remind me of Maria.

        Big Pharma doesn’t quash cancer cures — I used to work on an pediatric onconology ward — yes, children left in remission to go on and live full and productive lives without any setbacks — I would call that a cure. If these children had been given MMS they would be DEAD. It’s a moot point because MMS has been banned for being a quack worthless therapy.

        Provide some PROOF that MMS works — Big Pharma has nothing to do with MMS — just a stupid argument to obscure the fact that MMS does nothing. IF you believe that MMS does anthing — you are incredibly stupid and might want to pursue an education in physiology, biology, chemistry …. your arguments are ridiculous — without merit — you have been suckered in by illogical thinking, use your mind critically, you might realize the truth.

        Just another minion of Saint Humble spamming us.

      • Judge November 30, 2010 at 12:10 pm #

        @Paul,

        When someone tells me something is dangerous my immediate thought is “In relation to what?” I could have provided numbers on tobacco, alcohol, Mad Cow Disease, airplane crashes, terrorist attacks and dog bites. The numbers of people who have been killed or injured from these is readily available, as are the numbers of those who have been killed by “medical error.” What are the numbers regarding MMS? I am open to the idea that MMS is dangerous. Show me the numbers without diverting to wild attacks on homeopathy.

      • Amber K November 30, 2010 at 2:32 pm #

        Judge Judy,
        Paul has provided you with multiple links regarding the toxicity of MMS and yet you keep asking for proof of its toxicity. Then you label his link to a study showing homeopathy isn’t effective a “wild attack on homeopathy.” This seems a bit biased for an “MMS agnostic.”

        The reason we don’t have solid statistics of deaths and injury caused by MMS is that unlike regulated medicines there is no way to know. Jim Humble says he’s given MMS to 75,000 people and yet he kept no verifiable record of his “patients” and we have no way of knowing how many people died after taking it. We do know that there is absolutely no way he would admit that they died from taking MMS, whereas there are solid, trackable statistics of people dying from medical malpractice or drug interaction. That’s what science is all about – we do the research, publish and review the findings.

        What we do have is proof of MMS’s toxicity (as shown above) and multiple (just go to the requisite government sites in the US, Australia, Canada, etc) instances of hospitalization due to MMS.

        Until someone (perhaps one of the many people that are making a fortune off of MMS) would like to do the actual research and publish their findings we would know the answer to your question. That’s not going to happen by real scientists in the US or elsewhere, not because of Big Pharma but because it isn’t ethical to feed someone a poison and watch how long it takes them to get sick from it.

      • Justin Satov November 30, 2010 at 2:42 pm #

        @Judge Judy
        In all fairness, “tobacco, alcohol, Mad Cow Disease, airplane crashes, terrorist attacks and dog bites” could all be valid reasons to go to the hospital supposing you aren’t dead first. Particularly with dog bites, in the US there are between 20 and 40 fatalities per year, which make up something like 0.00001% of all dog bites. So with that in mind, one could say that hospitals are doing a fantastic job.

        Jump to MMS. Jim Humble himself has mentioned that (I’m paraphrasing here) there are an estimated 2,000,000 people using MMS, and yet he only states that 100,000 have been saved. Not quite as good as dog bites.

        Just saying…

      • Judge Judy November 30, 2010 at 3:04 pm #

        @ Amber,

        I wasn’t asking for info related to toxicity but numbers of those who have died and been injured by MMS. I mentioned homeopathy because it seems to me to have nothing to do with this situation with MMS …

        @ Justin,

        I have no idea what you are “just saying.”

        This conversation around MMS has activated the fear meme in most of the participants. I need a good reason before I become fearful about anything.

      • Justin Satov November 30, 2010 at 3:11 pm #

        @Judge Judy
        I’m saying that you want numbers on MMS to compare against the healthcare system, and that’s ridiculous. Something that’s been around for what, 10 years, vs. something that’s been around for thousands. Something that has treated a handful of crazies vs. something that has treated MOST of the developed world. I mean, the difference in numbers alone is astronomical.

        Not to mention, the information is out there as to why MMS is bad. Read about sodium chlorite out of an MMS context and you can find out why it’s bad. That alone should be enough, but you only seem to be interested in who has died. Fact is, you’d need a lot more of it to kill you. Killing your clients is bad for business.

      • Judge Judy November 30, 2010 at 3:18 pm #

        @ Justin,

        I want numbers to compare MMS against anything. Pick anything you want.

      • Paul Morgan November 30, 2010 at 5:18 pm #

        Firstly, the attack on homeopathy was not “wild” – Ania stated that she believed in homeopathy, so I pointed out the complete lack of evidence of benefit and the evidence that shows it to be no better than placebo. When we are talking about a multi-million dollar industry that is simply scamming its user, I think it’s vitally important to point this out when someone brings this into the debate.
        The known facts about MMS are plain for all to see – it’s an industrial bleach with well-documented toxicology. There are reports of serious harm and a probable death. If – and it’s a very big “if” – we were talking about a drug with known, proven beneficial effects, then we could draw up a risk-benefit analysis to determine whether this therapy was worthwhile for the diseases it had been proven to treat. However, MMS has no known, proven beneficial therapeutic effects. Therefore we are talking about a substance for which the risk-benefit analysis is no benefit and all risk. We may never know how many people who have been harmed by MMS, for reasons which have been discussed elsewhere. See also http://www.quackwatch.org

    • Justin Satov November 30, 2010 at 3:45 pm #

      @Judge Judy
      Coconuts falling out of trees. People tumbling down stairs. People getting hit by trains. It doesn’t matter because it’s not comparable. The fact is there are no credible numbers that you CAN research for MMS. The only numbers that I’ve been able to find are the numbers provided by Jim Humble; although, if you follow anything he says, you’ll notice that they change an awful lot. Sometimes he’s helping 75,000, sometimes 200,000, sometimes 100,000.

      I don’t think I want to bother arguing this with you any more. You want all these numbers of other things that have killed people so that you can compare it against falsified and fictitious numbers. On that theory alone you have failed from the start. You need a subject with proportional figures, but you can’t find that because figures don’t exist for MMS.

      If you really want to see for yourself whether or not this is a bad product, buy some and test it on yourself.

      • Rhys Morgan November 30, 2010 at 3:47 pm #

        Judge judy, can I ask why you still seem to think you need deaths before something is dangerous? That is the impression I’m getting from your comments.

  35. ts November 29, 2010 at 5:12 pm #

    Here’s an article written by a doctor that gives furthr clarification on MMS effeccts on the body:

    MMS: Miracle Mineral Solution or Trojan Horse? Your Body and DNA Decide

    http://www.sott.net/articles/show/213275-MMS-Miracle-Mineral-Solution-or-Trojan-Horse-Your-Body-and-DNA-Decide

    • Judge Judy November 29, 2010 at 6:08 pm #

      Yes, peer-reviewed research is a valuable resource:

      “A definitive review and close reading of medical peer-review journals, and government health statistics shows that American medicine frequently causes more harm than good. The number of people having in-hospital, adverse drug reactions (ADR) to prescribed medicine is 2.2 million. Dr. Richard Besser, of the CDC, in 1995, said the number of unnecessary antibiotics prescribed annually for viral infections was 20 million. Dr. Besser, in 2003, now refers to tens of millions of unnecessary antibiotics. The number of unnecessary medical and surgical procedures performed annually is 7.5 million. The number of people exposed to unnecessary hospitalization annually is 8.9 million. The total number of iatrogenic deaths shown in the following table is 783,936. It is evident that the American medical system is the leading cause of death and injury in the United States. The 2001 heart disease annual death rate is 699,697; the annual cancer death rate, 553,251.”

      Reading that, I wonder, how many people have died as a result of MMS? Can anyone answer this?

      • Paul Morgan November 29, 2010 at 6:36 pm #

        Judge Judy – please give the source of your quote.

        There are fundamental differences between licensed medicines and quackery such as MMS. You can conduct real research to find out the adverse effect profiles of medicines. For example:-
        http://www.fda.gov/Safety/MedWatch/default.htm
        Just Google “drug adverse effects” to find multiple sites giving the adverse effect profiles. Drugs undergo extensive clinical trials and then there is post-marketing surveillance to pick up problems such as the recent withdrawal of rosiglitazone.
        The current USA population is over 310 million. What is the actual rate of serious adverse effects? How many of the unnecessary hospitalisations and deaths reported were due to adverse drug reactions?
        When it comes to so-called “alternative” medicines, the adverse effects are never spoken about. Instead you get stupid statements where the effects of MMS (nausea, vomiting, diarrhoea, dehydration) are passed off as being “the body getting rid of toxins”. Total nonsense – it’s the body trying to get rid of the poison just ingested.
        There are numerous reports of people being harmed by MMS and one probable death. See:-
        http://www.theage.com.au/national/miracle-elixir-linked-to-death-illness-20100821-13a2z.html
        Why else, do you think, is it being banned in the USA, Canada, Australia, UK, Europe, Africa?

      • Ania November 29, 2010 at 7:51 pm #

        Thanks for this Judge Judy, I rest my case. And it will be the same in many other countries.
        So a few people being hospitalised and one possibly dying after taking MMS, yet it’s STILL OK for the health care system and Big harma to kill millions of people? No doubt those of you on here who have slated my views will also berate homeopathy (yes, I was brought up on it in the 60’s and use it today), will berate those of us who do not vaccinate their children (based on several sound books which gave referenceable sources), and will also berate those of us who saw the Swine Flu con coming, which was not based on science but based on making as much money as possible! And so it goes … I’m glad my comments have stirred things up. It proves that many people still do not see what is going on – that the world you live in is not what you think it is. We have researched, looked for and found answers to so many other questions on topics that are not as they seem; go ahead and live life your way. Just don’t expect people like us, who know there are safe and viable alternatives 1) to shut up and say nothing and 2) to succumb to your narrow minded ways of dealing with the many and varied health issues around today, most if not all, which are curable.

    • Justin Satov November 29, 2010 at 6:59 pm #

      Great article. It kills me that this information is out there in abundance and WE are being told to do “proper research”.

      • Judge Judy November 29, 2010 at 7:58 pm #

        Interesting how privately I was accused of the owner of this blog for being an apologist for alternative medicine for inquiring how many deaths have been attributed to MMS.

        Another question comes to mind, how many serious injuries that required medical intervention can be attributed to MMS?

        Of course I realize that antibiotics has nothing to do with MMS. I was simply putting into perspective the size of the MMS “problem.”

        Surely you can’t fault me for asking for hard numbers? Surely you can direct me to more than Australian newspaper articles?

        Maybe MMS IS dangerous and should be banned. I am open to that idea but am asking for more than what has been offered.

    • Ania November 29, 2010 at 8:09 pm #

      Oxygenation and oxidation are not the same. Ask the Doctors on this thread, they should know as I obviously don’t!

      • Paul Morgan November 29, 2010 at 11:23 pm #

        Ania – as I have said before, to quote Abraham Lincoln: it is better to remain silent and be thought of as a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. I have a message for you – this is planet Earth.
        I asked Judge Judy for the actual reference, but this has not been provided. Having seen a similar article before, I would like to actually know where this has come from to ensure that the figures quoted are based on fact rather than speculation and quoting out of context. Without this information, this is garbage. I asked how many of the people apparently injured by health care systems were harmed by serious adverse drug reactions – I am yet to have this question answered.
        With regard to MMS, the chemistry is clear cut and the toxicology is also readily available. See:-
        http://www.scotmas.com/what-we-do/chlorine-dioxide/background-faqs/regulatory-environment.aspx?language=en-gb
        and
        http://www.scotmas.com/what-we-do/chlorine-dioxide/background-faqs/reaction-chemistry.aspx?language=en-gb
        There have be no clinical trials to show MMS to be a safe and effective therapeutic agent. None. Zero.
        There are multiple anecdotes where people post their “experience” with MMS – totally unverifiable and about as believable as advertisements that pre-date the introduction of codes to prevent false claims being made. MMS banned in the USA because of reports of serious harm, banned in Canada because of reports of serious harm. Particularly good is the website of an MMS supplier in Australia, whose website contains a disclaimer:-
        http://www.mmsbuyaustralia.com.au/
        The Health Canada website warning of the dangers of MMS is pretty damning:-
        http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ahc-asc/media/advisories-avis/_2010/2010_74-eng.php
        200 times the tolerable daily intake of sodium chlorite!!!
        Also:-
        http://efoodalert.blogspot.com/2010/10/miracle-mineral-solution-mms-anything.html
        So, here we have a product with no proven health benefits, no properly conducted clinical trials, a load of completely nonsensical claims made about its (unproven) benefits, readily available information on its chemistry and toxicology (it’s pretty toxic), and reports of harm from many countries across the world. On the other hand, we have drugs that have been tested through the clinical trials process and assessed for their benefits and their adverse effect profiles (readily available on Internet searches). For these drugs the risk-benefit ratio can clearly be assessed – the same cannot be said for MMS where there have been no clinical trials. No-one in the healthcare professions will ever say that drugs are 100% safe and foolproof. You never here such honesty from “alt med” quacks.
        As for homeopathy, try looking at the real scientific research:-
        http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(05)67879-8/fulltext
        In other words, its no better than placebo.
        Put another way:-
        http://jonn.co.uk/badhomeopathy/modules/news/index.php?storytopic=4

  36. Zeno November 29, 2010 at 5:04 pm #

    Ania

    Wow! You’ve seen a programme about Pusztai?!!!

    Fortunately, many of us require a bit more information than some TV programme before making up our minds about things, particularly anything to do with health. (BTW, you really should look at his original research and see what he did and did not find.)

    However this has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that MMS is dangerous and has no benefits – other than a fatter wallet for its sellers.

    • Ania November 29, 2010 at 5:12 pm #

      Zeno, we’ll agree to disagree. I can’t be bothered any more as it’s obvious what’s going on here.

      • Rhys Morgan November 29, 2010 at 5:14 pm #

        Go on then, Ania.
        What exactly IS going on here?
        Please, do let me know!
        – Rhys

      • Zeno November 29, 2010 at 5:34 pm #

        Ania said:

        I can’t be bothered any more as it’s obvious what’s going on here.

        Typical of the Big Quacka supporters – the going gets tough when you’re asked to supply proper evidence, so you give up.

        People’s health is important – that’s why we need robust evidence and not anecdotes.

      • Paul Morgan November 29, 2010 at 5:59 pm #

        Can’t be bothered or is that you actually realise that firstly there is no evidence of MMS being a safe and effective therapeutic agent and secondly that MMS is dangerous to health?
        If you have any real evidence, rather than spouting the same rubbish that other “alt-med” quacks typically come out with, please supply it so that we can subject it to proper scientific scrutiny.

  37. Zeno November 28, 2010 at 10:46 pm #

    Ania said: “Go figure”

    I did. It’s an anecdote.

    • Ania November 29, 2010 at 5:14 pm #

      Adam, all I will say on this tpoic of cancer is Wake Up, look around and find out what’s really going on. I’m not going to write anything more on this blog as there’s no point trying to educate and awaken people whose brains and minds are completely dead.

      • Paul Morgan November 29, 2010 at 5:44 pm #

        Ania,
        I think the person here with a dead mind is you. You really are talking through your anus. You are completely deluded if you believe that “Big Pharma” is suppressing cancer cures or cures for anything else. While they are in the business of making money, they could do so at lot more easily if the drugs were that simple to test and manufacture. Why else would they spend billions of dollars/euros/pounds on drug research?
        Actually, you DO need to read the trials published in peer-reviewed scientific/medical journals. You need to understand the clinical trials process in order to understand how trials are used to prove or disprove the safety and efficacy of therapies. What you talk about are unverifiable anecdotes – these are not scientific evidence.
        I don’t work for any pharmaceutical companies – I’m a doctor in the NHS in the UK.
        You claim your brain is engaged – I don’t see any evidence of this here.

      • Adam November 29, 2010 at 5:44 pm #

        Hi Ania

        Since I work in medical research, I actually have a pretty good idea what’s really going on. And it doesn’t involve huge conspiracies.

        I would love you to try to “educate” me, but I suspect you’d just spout more bollocks like you’ve done above.

  38. Ania November 28, 2010 at 9:57 pm #

    PPS – there are MANY known, used and successful cures for cancer. I know of one person locally to me who has run a mile from the “conventional” cures of chemo, surgery, etc, and yet he WORKS IN the medical profession himself. If you ask doctors themselves, very few would succumb to the barbaric treatment for cancer still being used today; in this arena there seems to have been no significant improvement in treatment to 50 yrs ago if you actually take a long hard look at the history and progress in this field. Go figure that out before knocking any “natural cures” that don’t involve pharmaceuticals, are low cost and can’t be patented.

    • Paul Morgan November 28, 2010 at 11:12 pm #

      Sorry, Ania, but this is bollocks. There have been massive advances in the treatment of, and survival from, cancer and – thanks to the work of cancer doctors and cancer scientists – these improvements continue.
      http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/cancerstats/%20?openFull=1#list
      As for the “alternative” medicine cancer cures, perhaps you could give specific, verifiable examples of such a “cure” working, in the form of peer-reviewed scientific publications? No?
      So, before you post here or elsewhere about things you clearly know sod all about, engage your brain and do some research, rather than believing the crap spouted by “alt-med” supporters.

      • Ania November 29, 2010 at 4:45 pm #

        Paul, as you well know there are very few peer-reviewed scientific publications about other cures for cancer – as Big Pharma won’t allow them!!! Nor will they pay for them to be done otherwise THEY LOSE MONEY!!! When will people like you realise what’s going on? This is exactly why I NEVER give to ANY cancer charity – the people who work there have their hearts in the right place, but those at the top, know the score (as in cancer is curable) but you will never hear that from them.
        I don’t need to quote peer-reviewed papers when I have read about the stories myself or know people who have cured themselves. Why would I believe a less than true peer-reviewed paper as opposed to real people and their stories of what they did? And yes my brain is engaged, I’m just that I’m not brainwashed like you have been, and I have seen what the truth is about all these types of topics. By the way, which pharmaceutical company do you work for?

      • Adam November 29, 2010 at 4:53 pm #

        Ania, are you seriously claiming that there is a MASSIVE conspiracy, started by Big Pharma, but which all medical journals and the entire medical profession are in on?

        Just stop and think for a minute about how likely that really is.

        There are no alt-med cures for cancer. If there really were, and they worked, it would be impossible to keep it a secret, even if big pharma wanted to.

  39. Ania November 28, 2010 at 9:48 pm #

    It’s a shame to see that MMS is being slated. We have used it successfully for a variety of illnesses, having done our own thorough research. Yet, no-one seems to be asking this: how many people die from using “conventional” or Big Pharma treatments? Answer = millions. If you do you research properly, you will not find ONE person who has died from MMS, but millions who have died from taking the drugs prescribed all over the world. It is true that the FDA and many other departments want to stop the use of MMS, exactly because they are protecting Big Pharma and their profits. Cancer is the No 1 earner for the medical industry in the USA, and it’s going that way here too. Don’t slate something that you have no idea about – I and my family and others I know will continue to use this and other non-toxic treatments – at least this won’t kill me unlike what doctors prescibe. Do your own proper and unbiased research and check if that isn’t the case. Funny how MMS is the ONLY known cure (in 24-48 hrs) of Malaria. PS – the reason people have a reaction to MMS is that it is actually killing off the virus or bacteria, and the reaction is the body trying to get it out of your system. I don’t have to be a doctor to know that about how my body works.

    • Amber K November 28, 2010 at 10:56 pm #

      Ania could you link to the publication of your research?

      • Ania November 29, 2010 at 4:27 pm #

        Sorry Amber, my research does not cover any “publications” as such. There are records in Jim Humble’s own 2 books on how this works, as well as many websites and groups with members who have used and continue to use MMS, as well as our own results and that of people I know. I don’t use “scientific” research papers for research as a lot of them have been corrupted in that if some research says X is not a good thing to take for Y ailment, then the Pharma company will often bury that research and insist that the researcher change their report to show it is OK. I have seen this in a programme myself about GMO foods; if you Google Dr Arpad Pusztai, he is evidence of exactly this. He lost his research grant as he found that GM foods DID cause harm to the DNA of mice (and therefore to humans) as he wouldn’t state the opposite to the truth that he found.

      • Paul Morgan November 29, 2010 at 5:55 pm #

        And why should we believe “Bishop” Humble’s writings in his book? Where does he describe his scientific methodology? Where is the ethical approval for his trials? Where is the informed consent from the trial subjects? Where is the scientific peer review?
        Plenty of cures for malaria – see
        http://www.traveldoctor.co.uk/malaria.htm
        As for Humble, you do know that he was prosecuted in Malawi for his activities, don’t you? Just in case you don’t see:-
        http://maravipost.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2653:quacks-fined-for-aids-treatment-without-licence&catid=71:health&Itemid=139

        So, of course the reason that your “research” doesn’t cover any “publications” is that there is no real, verifiable, credible scientific evidence to show MMS to be a safe and effective therapeutic agent. Sorry, but without proper scientific evidence, all we have is a load of pseudo-scientific nonsense with no evidence of benefit. What we also have are the reports of people seriously harmed by MMS and probable death as a result.

    • Phil November 28, 2010 at 11:16 pm #

      You don’t have to be a doctor to know how your body works… to an extent.

      You do have to be a doctor to offer people treatment advice for diseases, so please stop. What you are doing is pathetic.

      • Ania November 29, 2010 at 4:28 pm #

        Phil, where did I write that I offered people treatment? Get your accusations right.

      • Phil November 29, 2010 at 6:41 pm #

        Perhaps all that bleach you’re drinking is affecting your eyesight.

        I said treatment advice, Jim humble (and I highly doubt that is his real name) is the wanker offering treatment.

        Malaria, Cancer, and all the other things MMS claims to cure are serious diseases, which people need to see a doctor about. Ordering some bleach of the internet wont work.

        Not only are you drawing people away from things which will cure or treat their condition, but you are actually encouraging them to cause themselves further harm.

    • Paul Morgan November 28, 2010 at 11:22 pm #

      Given the current state of the scientific evidence, it is imperative that MMS is exposed for the scam that it is. It is an industrial bleach. Ingesting it is harmful to human health.
      Actually, you do need to study human anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, pathology, pharmacology, microbiology, etc. to know how the human body works, how diseases affect the body, and how it reacts to invading pathogens and to administered drugs.
      Malaria can be cured by a number of drugs – see http://www.traveldoctor.co.uk/malaria.htm
      Before you talk nonsense, engage your brain. As Abraham Lincoln said, “Better to remain silent and be thought of as a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt”.

      • Ania November 29, 2010 at 4:39 pm #

        Paul, I’d rather be seen to be a fool than believe the rubbish that most people like you believe, we don’t take anything that the mainstream doctor, pharmaceuticals etc say. all you have to do is follow the money. We don’t expect the doctor to give us a pill for any health issues we have, and haven’t done so for many many years. By your reckoning, I/we should be dead if we’ve retained our responsibility for our health ourselves. Don’t you know about the “incentives” that doctor’s are offered to push onto patients, the latest drug of the month??? Wake up!
        If MMS was an industrial bleach, I should have been poisoned and seriously ill months ago, but I’m still here, and alive and well. For the record, we have actually studied for ourselves how the body works; we have a large library of related books that we use for health and wellness. This is not just the domain of doctors, but of people who care enough for their health and find out for themselves how their body works without expecting others to do it for them. And my brain is just fine, it’s more awake and aware of what’s REALLY going on than yours ever will be.

    • Justin Satov November 29, 2010 at 6:25 pm #

      As I have said to Jim Humble and his followers, you are indeed correct that there isn’t a known case of MMS killing anyone. Just as there are no clinically documented cases of it doing anything.

      To paraphrase Jim Humble’s words – there isn’t a high enough concentration to kill anybody. But there also isn’t a high enough concentration to do, well, anything. Some people have reactions to it, as drinking bleach tends to do, but other than that, it does NOTHING. No good, no bad, no ugly; just plain old nothing.

      Also of note, “do you research properly” lends itself to the idea that we should ignore proven science in favour of a B.S. miracle cure created by a GOLD PROSPECTOR! This man has zero qualifications to be dabbling in medicine, nor does he have any credibility in the scientific community. He told me in an email that he has written four books, yet I searched the ISBN database and could find only his MMS book.

      You don’t even need to research MMS to know it’s crap – just research Jim Humble. Look up the photos that he was “in” where it’s clearly and poorly photoshopped. Try to find the “4 books” that he “wrote”. Read up on his life. In fact, here’s another lie I caught him in. He states in an interview that he believes in God, that he’s a Christian. Yet in an email he tells me that he does not. I’ll send you unedited copies of our email exchange if you wish.

  40. Phil November 24, 2010 at 8:44 pm #

    Rhys, seen you on the one show today, you’re doing a crackin’ job mate, keep it up.

    Given that your Crohn’s forum Mods were not doing much to stop people peddling bleach, have you thought about starting your own?

    I guess it would be a big undertaking, but clearly the forum you were on is not very good if it will allow dangerous advice to be posted and not even questioned.

    Good luck with with the Doctor thing, hope it works out for you. You’ve certainly got the right attitude for it.

    All the best
    Phil

  41. Christine Tao November 24, 2010 at 7:50 pm #

    Just saw your coverage on the one show – well done!

    I am ridiculously impressed

  42. Margaret Craner November 24, 2010 at 7:37 pm #

    I have just watched The One Show and was so impressed with what you have done about the so called Miracle Cures. I have added a link to this page on my blog to point other crafters to your research. Many crafters are suffering from medical problems, so they would be vulnerable to this kind of selling. I hope that is ok with you. If not, please contact me and I will remove the link. Meanwhile, well done.

    • Ben November 24, 2010 at 7:42 pm #

      I too, may in fact add this link to my site to further the availability to the public.

  43. Ben November 24, 2010 at 7:25 pm #

    Just seen you on Tele (don’t know the program, mums got it on, HA!). Kudo’s to you, good research, a lot of back-up there. Considering bleach can strip skin when concentrated, I would leave the people who drink it (after reading warnings) to it.
    Certainly not for me, you have my support!

  44. Bev November 24, 2010 at 7:25 pm #

    Hi Rhys

    I just saw you on the One show and was interested as I also have Crohn’s so can also understand people’s wish for some miracle cure.

    I was shocked the way the Crohn’s forum behaved. When I was diagnosed in 2005 I came across one called Crohnzone which I am still a member of but rarely use at the moment, I as you, pop in for questions etc Luckily I have found it a great support over the years and I think I met more sceptics like you and I than believers of faddy cures.

    You are clearly a very inteligent young man and best luck for the future, you’ll make a great Doctor!

    Beverly Sedge

  45. Alan November 21, 2010 at 11:43 am #

    Hello Mr. Morgan, my name is Alan Hindle, I’m a writer and editor at Snipe Magazine in London. I recently covered The Amaz!ng Day event and I’m trying to do a series of interviews with those who were involved or presented there. By the way, congratulations on your Grassroots Award! I’m wondering if I could send you a few questions to answer, to publish in the online mag? Snipe is at http://www.snipe.at and the article I wrote about TAM can be seen at

    http://snipe.at/metropolis/review-the-amazng-meeting-what-happens-when-cory-doctorow-stephen-fry-alan-moore-and-the-amazing-randi-play-host-to-1000-of-their-closest-friends

    Cheers very much,

    Yours,

    Alan Hindle
    Snipe Magazine

  46. Jonathan Campbell November 12, 2010 at 3:43 pm #

    Bravo, Rhys. Your post and video are wonderful, insightful, and clear. Too bad so many so-called “adults” have been taken in by this dangerous scam. See my website article: http://www.cqs.com/mms.htm

    You will see on my website that I actually promote proven, effective alternative, naturopathic treatments for serious chronic diseases. (Unfortunately Crohn’s Disease is not one of them, although you may find some good information in Michael Murray’s Encyclopedia of Natural Medicine, he has an entire chapter of the book on Crohn’s.)

    What these fake remedies like MMS do, besides hurting a lot of people, is to discredit anything alternative, and that is truly unfortunate.

    Keep up your good work, with the knowledge that sometimes you may unearth something truly evil like MMS, and you will become the target of their hate mail. I’ve done that more than once – for exposing colloidal silver and liquid zeolite on my website. I have already gotten some hate mail for my MMS post. Welcome to the whistleblowers club. It’s sometimes not a fun experience, but if you think of their hate mails as a measure of your good work, then you can have a different perspective on them.

    Kind regards
    Jonathan

    • Zeno November 12, 2010 at 3:56 pm #

      Jonathan

      Whilst your support for Rhys and condemnation of purveyors of MMS is laudable, I found this statement (cached) on your website:

      The Natural Cancer Therapy is a complete, safe, non-toxic cancer therapy, based on the research of Dr. Matthias Rath, Dr. Hugh Riordan, and others. It can be used instead of standard oncological cancer therapy. This therapy has been shown to reverse cancer, stop cancer spread and metastases, and enhance health. Taken after standard oncology therapy, the regimen helps to rebuild and maintain the immune system and prevent metastases. It is non-toxic and has no adverse side effects.

      Care to explain that one? It would appear to be a clear breach of the UK’s Cancer Act 1939.

      • Pernille Nylehn November 12, 2010 at 7:42 pm #

        And what about this page about Avian influenza and swine flu: http://www.cqs.com/influenza.htm

        “The way to prepare yourself and protect your family from any influenza is not a vaccine or anti-viral drug. I strongly recommend that if vaccines and/or anti-viral drugs are offered to you, that you refuse them. These actually reduce your immunity, and can be very harmful”

        And he recommends taking a prophylactic dose of 2-4000 mg vitamin per meal, and if one does get ill, increase it up to 2000 mg every hour. He also recommends taking large amounts of oregano oil, turmeric extract, ginger, quercetin, garlic, N-acetyl cysteine (NAC), and green tea. Even, if necessary, 30-gram intravenous vitamin C infusions 2-3 times weekly, with higher dosages if necessary for pneumonia or previously compromised immunity (e.g., AIDS or CFIDS).”

        As far as I know, a dose of more than 8 g vitamin C per day 8 for days running may cause serious poisoning and risk of kidney damage. Campbell recommends up to 24 grams per day.

        He also recommends “natural therapy guides” for cancer, heart disease, AIDS, or hepatitis. He actually claims AIDS is not caused by HIV, and can be treated by “intense nutritional therapy”.

        Jonathan Campbell, you’re a quack. A dangerous one.

        Pernille Nylehn
        MD

    • Judge Judy November 12, 2010 at 8:07 pm #

      You’ve dug your own grave here Jonathan. People here treat objects like women … and that is on nice days. You will be threatened with castration and if you persist Dr. Pernille herself will show you some genuine Nowegian bedside manner and remove your testicles with a rusty knife.

      • Pernille Nylehn November 12, 2010 at 9:53 pm #

        Now, Judy, that wouldn’t be polite, would it? 😉

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