To Judge Judy

To introduce this post, I accused a commenter on the Bleachgate blogpost of being an ‘alternative medicine’ apologist in a private email. They posted this as a comment and emailed me back to say that I was confused about who hadn’t made their mind up about MMS.
This was my response.
I want to post it because I feel it also highlights just why I want to deal with MMS.

To Judge Judy
First, I accused you of being an alternative medicine apologist because you used one of their prime tactics, attacking conventional medicine.
Secondly, you’ve not made up your mind on MMS? Fair enough.
However, consider this: no clinical evidence exists for it, only anecdotes. Also, toxicity studies show that ClO2 (MMS), in doses lower than Jim recommends, is a neurotoxin and a thyroid toxin. These both are worrying. The fact that Jim sells MMS, or at least used to, and now instead makes money from others with his book, DVDs, courses and royalties from other MMS suppliers, then lies and says he makes no money from MMS, is even more worrying, especially since we’re talking about what is supposedly a medicine. A pseudo medicine that is being targeted specifically at those most vulnerable, those with cancer, AIDS and other life threatening, horrible illnesses. Even worse, it’s targeted at those with chronic illnesses, those with the most potential to suffer from the long term damaging effects of it.
All this, without a shred of evidence that it works.
Perhaps now you see my worry and desire to sort this out ASAP?
– Rhys


16 Responses to “To Judge Judy”

  1. jboyd2010 December 20, 2010 at 11:11 am #

    The comments are all over the place here. First, let’s start with Chlorine Dioxide (CIO2) being a neurotoxin and a thyroid toxin!?! Please provide a link to the research since it’s been used as a disinfectant for drinking water, for bleaching flour as well as in food processing for many years. In fact it’s been used as a disinfectant since the 1940s.

    Yes, there is no clinical evidence of the efficacy of MMS but there IS plenty of anecdotal evidence. Over 75000 persons cured of Malaria in Africa for example. One can say the same thing about most traditional medicines (i.e. Chinese, Ayurvedic, etc) which have been around and cured people of all sorts of ailments for thousands of years whereas western allopathic medicine hasn’t even been more effective than homeopathy in treating most illnesses. Now slowly there is more research being done to understand how they work but that is IN PARALLEL to it being used effectively. Again you seem to believe that if it doesn’t have a government stamp on it, it should be banned whereas I believe we should leave it to the market to decide. If something is ineffective, news of its ineffectiveness will quickly spread and no one will purchase it.

    A couple of other things, I notice English Atheist refers to Evidence based medicine saving more lives than anything else. The concept has only really existed since the early 90s and in relation to allopathic medicine, one cannot say that it is applied in a rigorous manner. Iatrogenic deaths are the leading killer above any other illness. In the US it is an estimated 999,936 deaths annually from iatrogenic causes. In the UK, as the numbers are not broken down, the total including mistakes is 90,000. You rarely if ever hear of people dying in large numbers from taking what you call alternative medicine remedies.

    Finally, in relation to AIDS, may I recommend a couple of links for you to become informed of the true nature of AIDS.
    Fear of the Invisible by Janine Roberts

    The Real Cause of AIDS

    Deconstructing The Myth Of AIDS (Gary Null)

    All the best

  2. Paul Morgan November 29, 2010 at 11:56 pm #

    The point here is that if someone with cancer takes MMS, indeed any other form of quackery (e.g.homeopathy), rather than properly tested medicine and dies, they will probably have died from a cancer rather than the quack medicine. Nevertheless, the quack medicine is every bit as responsible for the death of that person as the cancer because that cancer may have been treatable using properly tested therapies. Unlike “alternative medicines”, the benefits and risks of conventional therapies are fully documented and readily available.
    MMS has not undergone ANY proper clinical trials, so there is no evidence that it is either safe or effective as a therapeutic agent. The chemistry and toxicology of sodium chlorite and chlorine dioxide are well-known and fully documented. Many “alternative medicines” may have no direct harmful effects (e.g. homeopathy, see However, MMS is pretty toxic and does cause serious harm.
    In the skeptical mindset, it is necessary to see evidence that something works before accepting it as a therapeutic agent. Proper, verifiable evidence from proper scientific studies and clinical trials. Such evidence does not exist for MMS. We do have “Bishop” Humble’s writings in his book, but there has been no publications of his so-called trials in peer-reviewed scientific/medical journals. No details on his trial methodology, ethical approval or informed consent. Scientifically, they have as much validity as a claim that the moon is made of green cheese.
    So, given the current state of the evidence in the case of MMS, it needs to be removed from sale ASAP. If the MMS advocates really think that it is beneficial, they need to conduct some proper trials and have the results subjected to scientific scrutiny. If such trials are ever conducted and they prove MMS to be a safe and effective therapeutic agent, then it will be acknowledged as such and Humble will be a hero. However, it is my assertion that the MMS advocates don’t have the necessary skills or determination to get such trials conducted, so – for the foreseeable future at least – Humble remains a great big fat zero.
    After all, the costs of running trials would eat massively into the seller’s profit margins and I don’t think they would be brave enough to risk doing a trial that showed their product to be ineffective and/or dangerous.

    • mms is a scam November 30, 2010 at 5:46 am #

      The point is that MMS is being touted as a cure for everything. That’s not possible. So even though it may not kill people directly, it can kill them indirectly when people drop conventional treatment for MMS. It’s like when some stupid doctor told people baking soda could cure cancer — people stopped chemotherapy and died as a result — baking soda wasn’t the cause of death, it was stopping chemotherapy. Maybe people should sue the person convincing them to stop life saving therapies for their quack therapy — it’s sort of like manslaughter.

      Jim Humble probably has, indirectly, had a hand in killing a few people by convincing them his bullshit is true — they stop meds to take MMS and die — does this implicate him in the death of a person — I think so.

      • jboyd2010 December 21, 2010 at 11:13 pm #

        I think it is disingenuous to say that MMS has claimed to cure everything. It can have a positive reaction on many illnesses that contains parasites, fungi, or diseased cells that have low pH and a positive ionic charge due to their reactivity to the chlorine dioxide ion. Note there are many diseases that fit into this category. Whereas chemotherapy works by preventing either DNA or RNA or both from growing or reproducing. It works on the WHOLE BODY. Life expectancy for chemo or radio therapy cancer patients in general doesn’t surpass 7 years. For those who either consciously or unconsciously make the required nutritional changes they will survive longer. But guess what as oncologists are completely clueless about nutrition, the survival rate for the majority doesn’t surpass 7 years.

        Otto Warburg had won 2 nobel prizes for his work on cancer and oxygen. The basic message of his work was that CANCER BASICALLY NEEDS A LOW OXYGEN ENVIRONMENT TO SURVIVE and that if you increase the levels of oxygen where the cancer cells are located, the cancer cells will die off. (Similar to you not surviving in an oxygen deprived environment). MMS is just a potent form of stabilized oxygen. The whole question is whether the oxygen can get to the appropriate part of the body. In some cases, that might be true in other cases it might be more difficult. To learn more, do a search on Otto Warburg.

  3. Hughes November 29, 2010 at 9:03 pm #

    “If close to a million Americans die from causes that can be traced directly to medical intervention every year and no one dies from MMS, how concerned should we be?”*

    *Citation needed.

    • Paul Morgan November 30, 2010 at 12:05 am #

      Yes, a citation is definitely needed so that the figures can be checked to see if they come from a reputable source. MMS has been associated with at least one death and many serious adverse effects and has no known beneficial therapeutic effects (please don’t bother, anyone, with the “it works for me” nonsense anecdotes – you’ll be wasting everyone’s time).
      Medicine and medical treatments are not 100% safe, but they don’t claim to be. However, just because some people are harmed by medicines and medical treatments, to say that MMS must be safe as it’s not “FDA approved” is an extrapolation of such ridiculously enormous proportions as to be laughable.

      • jboyd2010 December 21, 2010 at 10:23 pm #

        Paul, I think the point that maybe is being made is that the number of deaths directly attributed to CAM treatments are very small where the number of iatrogenic deaths are higher than the number of deaths caused by any disease! Consider that activated MMS (i.e. chlorine dioxide) is just stabilized oxygen. Think of how daft you have to be to find a way to use chlorine dioxide which is used in drinking water all over the world to disinfect drinking water, in such a manner that it could kill you!?! If you use too much you get a herxheimer reaction due to chlorine dioxide killing all pathogens as it moves through your blood. If you understand that, you don’t ingest more, instead you let your body’s organs for dealing with toxins (i.e. liver, kidneys, colon, skin, etc) eliminate them from your body. It’s clear that most likely the person consume an extremely large sum of MMS to have any role in her death. Whereas with iatrogenic deaths, in the majority of cases they are giving you the recommended dose and your dying from the side effects.

        In terms of the FDA, or government regulatory approval is highly dubious. All that has happened is that the liability for the product has been passed from the company to the public because the regulatory agency has declared it “safe”. What that means is that the company doesn’t pay for deaths related to it’s product. Only in the absolute worst cases when there is a public uproar because people are dying in short periods after use of the product, are companies obliged to fork out any cash to compensate those whose lives have been damaged or destroyed. In fact it has been estimated in peer reviewed published studies that FDA-approved prescription drugs injure 2.2 million and kill approximately 100,000 Americans each year more realistic estimates put the number of deaths at over 200,000 people annually in the United States alone. Note that is what is reported which is estimated to be less than 10% of the real total. Without that government approval and protection from liability for drugs, vaccines, etc, how many of these companies could even have a viable business?

  4. Steve Rogers November 29, 2010 at 9:02 pm #

    Stop going on about deaths. They’re not the point.

  5. Judge Judy November 29, 2010 at 8:41 pm #

    Thank you for that Rhys. As I have stated before, I am MMS-agnostic. You may be correct in your fight against this product. I do not know. Your supporters attack others by asking for hard numbers, yet when I ask them for the same they obfuscate. How many deaths can be attributed to MMS? How many injuries that required medical treatment have been reported?

    If close to a million Americans die from causes that can be traced directly to medical intervention every year and no one dies from MMS, how concerned should we be?

    • CanadianChick November 29, 2010 at 9:07 pm #

      Judy, if someone uses MMS for cancer treatment and dies, would that be reported as a death from MMS – most likely not – it would be a cancer death. If someone uses MMS for malaria and then dies is it death from MMS or death from malaria? I could go on but I don’t need to – the alt-med types ALWAYS claim no deaths attributed to their products, but diseases treated with quackery cause death all the time.

      When people display all the symptoms of being affected by a neurotoxin after taking a neurotoxin, do they have to die immediately for you to recognize it as a bad thing??

      How do we know it’s a neurotoxin? Because it’s been flipping tested – that’s why no reputable pharma company is knocking on Jim Humble’s door…not because they don’t see enough $$$ in it.


      • Dirk September 7, 2011 at 9:06 pm #

        If a cancer patient dies from chemotherapy how is that death reported? By cancer, of course. Yet it wasn’t the cancer that killed the patient. Happens everyday.

    • Rhys Morgan November 29, 2010 at 9:12 pm #

      Well, as I’ve said, so far no deaths can be directly traced back to brand MMS yet.
      However, I still think we should be extremely worried. Do we have to wait for deaths before that?
      It’s a dangerous chemical. That much is known. People are being told to ingest it.
      A) Most of them don’t know it’s a dangerous chemical and deny that it is when told.
      B) Imagine a cancer patient making their last days hellish by drinking what IS an industrial bleach. They’re vomiting and having severe diarrhoea. All because they were told by someone to suffer through it and they’d be cured. Instead, they die. And they die in more pain than if they’d not had the MMS.
      C) Now imagine an HIV/AIDS patient told that they can be cured by MMS. They take it and have sex because they think they’re cured. They pass it onto their partner.
      D) Jim took/sent MMS to Africa. There’s next to no doubt about that. What about all the patients who took MMS? Jim didn’t follow up on them. We don’t know what the hell happened to them. They didn’t know that it was a harmful industrial bleach. They were told it was a health drink.
      E) Jim actively tells his patients that real medicine is harmful, telling them similar things that you said, that medicine kills people, neglecting to mention the people that it saves. He tells them lies or delusions, that ARV drugs CAUSE AIDS rather than delay them.
      See, I can’t live with myself knowing that all this happens and just sitting by the side, not doing anything. Most of these things, perhaps they won’t result in direct causes of death. But they will, however, cause indirect deaths.
      There is also the unverified case of Sylvia Fink. She took MMS, suffered the vomiting and nausea but refused to rehydrate as necessary. She fell into a coma and died. It’s possible that she had some other illness and that was what killed her, or it was exacerbated by the MMS.
      The coroner’s report is yet to be released and Jim has already libeled her husband, calling him a liar etc.
      More reasons why I think that MMS needs to be removed from sale.

      • Judge Judy November 30, 2010 at 12:14 pm #

        When someone tells me something is dangerous my immediate thought is “In relation to what?” I could have provided numbers on tobacco, alcohol, Mad Cow Disease, airplane crashes, terrorist attacks and dog bites. The numbers of people who have been killed or injured from these is readily available, as are the numbers of those who have been killed by “medical error.” What are the numbers regarding MMS? I am open to the idea that MMS is dangerous. Show me the numbers.

    • SkepticCanary November 29, 2010 at 9:50 pm #

      Pointless comparison. What we do know about sodium chlorite is that it’s dangerous, especially if you mix it with acid to make chlorine dioxide. It’s never been shown to have any medicinal benefits. Therefore, selling it as a medicine is disingenuous at best, and downright evil at worst.

    • EnglishAtheist November 29, 2010 at 11:41 pm #

      “First, I accused you of being an alternative medicine apologist because you used one of their prime tactics, attacking conventional medicine.”

      Here you go again:

      “If close to a million Americans die from causes that can be traced directly to medical intervention every year and no one dies from MMS, how concerned should we be?”

      Evidence based medicine has saved more lives than anything else in the entire world ever.

      Alternative medicine that is shown to work gets called medicine.


  1. Tweets that mention To Judge Judy « Rhys's Blog -- - November 30, 2010

    […] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Joanne Wellings, Rhys Morgan. Rhys Morgan said: My reply to Judge Judy, who asked how concerned we should be about MMS. […]

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